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Mobile phones massacring honeybees?
By Stevie Smith Apr 18, 2007, 14:31 GMT
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if people believe this, I have swamp land in Florida that would make a great investment for someone.
This problem would have shown up sooner if it was true, it may have some influence in some areas, but in other areas there has been no densification of cell towers or mobile users and this syndrome is happening there with the bees
I think what the study shows is bees navigation systems are sensitive to changes in electromagnetic radiation. I suspect the cyclical pattern in sunspot activity from the Sun and the changes this has on the Earth's magnetic field as a result of the sunspot changes is probably the bigger culprit as some other researchers suggest in the media.
And your evidence for this is...?
You may be a legitimate investigator with hard data, I don't know.
The data regading cell phone radiation may be compelling also. I don't know.
But if you are just opining and offering up pet theories based on poorly-understood snippets of pop science journalism, then you are a buffoon, a bombast, or to put it more plainly, you are speaking out of the wrong orifice.
(I'm hoping these expletives fall on the right side of the moderators...)
It's much better when evidence is used to support an allegation, and scientists with actual credentials are consulted rather than a guy in a lab coat who swears he's a licensed scientitian.
The cell phone theory seems particularly wrong for two reasons:
1) Cell phones weren't invented this past winter.
2) The die off pattern doesn't follow the spread of cell phone technology.
The inevitable conclusion is that there is more evidence against the tie between cell phones and CCD than there is for it. It's an interesting idea to entertain, but the evidence doesn't support it.
I tink there is money to be made by dusting crops with pollen.
Well Tyler, I agree with you here...
> It's much better when evidence is used to support an allegation, and
> scientists with actual credentials are consulted rather than a guy in
> a lab coat who swears he's a licensed scientitian.
But then what's all this?
> The cell phone theory seems particularly wrong for two reasons:
>
> 1) Cell phones weren't invented this past winter.
> 2) The die off pattern doesn't follow the spread of cell phone technology.
>
> The inevitable conclusion is that there is more evidence against the
> tie between cell phones and CCD than there is for it. It's an interesting
> idea to entertain, but the evidence doesn't support it.
Just because an idea is implausible doesn't make it wrong. Two reasons you list are excellent reasons for approaching the actual data behind this news story with some health skepticism. But I haven't seen the actual studies. It is entirely possible that these two concerns have been addressed in some way by the authors of the study.
Most importantly, no 'inevitable conclusion' follows from reasons 1) and 2), and these reasons do not constitute evidence of any kind (apart from being evidence that you believe them to be true and convincing). Not only do they not constitute evidence, but the second claim, which would require evidence to support it, has none. It's all another case of 'alternative-orifice-speak' (alt-orifice).
Your suspicions are worth entertaining, and you may be right, but you kind of hurried to the close on this one. I hope our politicians don't come to snap conclusions like this when considering complex and important issues...
There must be an island or other area with no cell phone coverage that can be used as a control group.
This story is a speculation for now, and more research is needed.
>>It's much better when evidence is used to support an allegation, and >>scientists with actual credentials are consulted rather than a guy in a lab >>coat who swears he's a licensed scientitian.
and you know this from where? Quote source.
>>The cell phone theory seems particularly wrong for two reasons:
>>1) Cell phones weren't invented this past winter.
>>2) The die off pattern doesn't follow the spread of cell phone technology.
Common sence dictates: Cell phones have been growing in numbers, as the numbers grow, so does the density of emmissions from those cell phones. Therefore, any patterns would be based on the increase in density of cell phone sites and numbers of phones supported.
>>The inevitable conclusion is that there is more evidence against the tie >>between cell phones and CCD than there is for it. It's an interesting idea >>to entertain, but the evidence doesn't support it.
You have not offered any evidence, statisitical or otherwise, to have a conclusion.
HEY BLOWHEAD,
THE LOCAL REPORTS HERE FROM BEE KEEPERS THAT LIVE ON RELATIVELY ISOLATED GULF ISLANDS IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST IS THEIR BEE COLONIES ARE DOWN 50%.
NO CELL PHONE OR CELL TOWER TO BE FOUND WITHIN A 10 MILE RADIUS OF THEIR HIVES.
SO YOU FIGURE IT OUT GENIUS!
There was a bee and a hornet walking down the street. The bee was wearing a yarmulke; so the hornet asked him why. The bee's reply: 'I don't want to be known as a WASP.'
We Are ALL gonna DiE!!!!!!!!! The end of the world is happening because of our cell phones and those DAMN BlooDY BEe'S!!!!!!!
it's true that cell phones have been around for a long time, but the latest 3G technologies have not. it could very well be that this new use of spectrum could be causing problems that weren't seen previously.
Wow, I am flabbergasted that no one has suggested Al Gore's favourite, global warming. Or the use of SUVs. Could it be that perhaps we are going through a cycle? There have been many famines in history. Perhaps it is our turn. For now, cell phone use as the culprit is only in the theory stage. If it were true, what a massive shift would be needed in our social habits to thwart such a disastrous scenario. Let's hope this one doesn't pan out.
Wow, people are pretty sensitive about their cell phones! I agree we should be skeptical, but we should also be open to all the possibilies.
What if the link to bees and cancer is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, like the link between cigarettes and cancer, would people be willing to give up their phones? Would they support a government ban on cell towers? Somehow I doubt it — taking responsibility is not something our species does well.
I think the poster who suggested the future is aerial pollination may be on to something, if it comes down to a choice between bees and cell phones.
This story is aimed at those conspiracy theorists and those that beleive in aliens. They need some 'news' stories to keep them entertained.
It is sad that we have done so much wrong to the world. To think that technology does not effect the world around us, in bizare and unexpected ways would be niave. we should take a very close look at what we are doing and do all we can to minimize damage.
Odd news I ran a ham radio repeater station for years with both VHF and UHF transmitters right inside a farm land house with the bee's 20 feet away, 300 feet away is high power Manitoba Hydro lines, we all seemed to get along just fine. VE4ACV THe bee's kept coming back even when the bee keeper completely lost interest in his hobby.
Time lag on the prolification of cell phones and the bee problem notwithstanding, the most difficult fact to explain with the cell phone theory is the lack of predatory interest in an undefended hive. Predators stay away from what would be a very high value target. Why would cell phones do this? I could understand how they could, in theory, disrupt the bees, which I recall do use magnetic fields as one way to find their way around, but other critters don't work this way.
My bet would be on something like a virus. Something that a predator might be able to sense or which might somehow sully the honey.
My gosh you're blowing hard!
>> BEEMAN Apr 18th, 2007 - 20:04:47
>>
>> HEY BLOWHEAD,
>>
>> THE LOCAL REPORTS HERE FROM BEE KEEPERS THAT LIVE ON RELATIVELY
>> ISOLATED GULF ISLANDS IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST IS THEIR BEE COLONIES
>> ARE DOWN 50%.
>>
>> NO CELL PHONE OR CELL TOWER TO BE FOUND WITHIN A 10 MILE RADIUS OF THEIR
>> HIVES.
>>
>> SO YOU FIGURE IT OUT GENIUS!
First of all, this is an example of the 'Capslock Fallacy' or 'Argumentum ad Capslock'. Just because you type something in all uppercase letters does not make it any more true or convincing.
My whole point is that, based on a story like this, we have grounds to 'figure out' or conclude precisely nothing. Instead, we have reasons to learn more about the problem, always keeping our critical faculties activated.
Your claim about Pacific Northwest islands may be true, but would hardly rule out the cell phone hypothesis. What if there are two or more interacting causes? What if the cell phone hypothesis turns out to be too narrowly framed, and a larger class of communicative signals are involved?
I think any self-respecting genius in a case like this would not try to 'figure it out' based on a news story and some alternate-orifice theorising.
I read a while back about a British social commentator who mentioned that most people will always prefer religion to science because science requires us to accept a great deal of uncertainty. In fact, there is ultimately no certainty in science, only doubt, and hence the freedom to question. People don't like that. Once a doubt, question or uncertainty is raised, they want the issue settled and concluded in their minds right away.
Hence religion, and hence Cliff-Clavinesque armchair pseudoscientific 'conclusions' based on nothing but the desire to speak in the authoritative/knowledgable mode.
Clearly if radiation produced by mobile phones are destroying the navigational skills of the honeybees the population of this planet, the people of the planet have only a few years before 85% of the food supply is gone.
The messages posted here are an example of the ignorance about this devastating world problem. Talk about trap door minds slammed shut. It's frightening! Studies have shown brain cells are damaged by the transmission.
You want to bet the honey bees will disappear before the majority of the annoying mobile phone users abandon their useless toys.
How ridiculous! Some families have 4 or more mobile phones and log 3 hours or more per day. Therefore will never again find an opening between hives and the orchard vegetable flowers.
Wake up and smell the ...
Larry
Is there any data regarding bee populations and the previous solar maximum in 1958?
There is no doubt that man is contributing to global warming but I do believe that the bulk of it is due to solar conditions.
We live and die by the whims of the sun.
seriously people in canada have nothing else to do ?
put on the news they are talking about which pot hole is being fixed on which road. if not that its the weather. and now this ....
I am flabbergasted at the remarks by some of you stating the disappearance of the honeybees is a new problem. It was recognised more than 4 years ago. They have been trying to determine the cause since then.
For those of you who know so little I suggest you be the first to volunteer to pollinate the blossoms if you want to eat!
Oh yes! The polar ice caps are melting! Are the bees stinging the glaziers?
With the recent proliferation of cell phone, wireless internet, blackberry, in-car navigation systems, we have saturated the airwaves with electromagnetic radiation. Whether or not this is the single cause becomes an irrelevent argument. Many of the 'advances' of the last 50 years have all appearance of massive scale, uncontrolled 'experiments' with no control group.
In less than a century, humans have abandoned their place as a part of the natural world for the illusion that we can control and manipulate everything natural. We have managed to destroy most of the world's great forests, have decimated fish populations, are quickly depleting all the accessible mineral deposits, are diminishing the biological diversity of the planet and are causing significant climate change.
Perhaps it really is our destiny to turn this beautiful blue-green sphere into a lifeless ball of dirt. Great job. Keep up the good work.
For me I hope it is Cell phones causing this problem. I hate all cell phones and Black Berries. They are totally retarded. See a child walking across an interesection chatting on a cell phone has me laughing myself to death.
Sorry, this technology should only be used in an emergency. Why the hell would I want anyone to be able to find me at anytime anywhere??? It's idiotic to say the least.
There's a good reason to be skeptical of the scientific community because the list of variables is longer than can be imagined... everything from EM emissions from cellphones and other mobile devices to atmospheric pollutants, mites, viruses and I've even heard one about the poles of the Earth being overdue for a rotation which would completely screw them up as well.
But remember, scientists are still people who are eager for their 15 minutes of fame. They have every reason to bleat the horn and beat the drum if they have even the slightest bit of 'compelling evidence' because it means attention and attention equals more research dollars equals job security.
Whatever the cause, nobody seems to be paying attention to the remaining 10-30% of the unaffected hives? Why? What makes these bees so resillient that they can withstand whatever it is that's going wrong? Is CCD knocking on their door too or are they managing to fend it off?
Just like any disease, whatever the cause, there are always going to be some survivors and those that do survive will be the stronger for it. Darwin said something to the effect that 'it's not the strongest of species' that survive, but those most adaptive to change'. If some colonies can adapt, as I suspect, then they will eventually fill the void left by those who could not.
That being said, we're likely to see a very crappy harvest this year because the populations are so low. Now might be a good time to plant a garden.
This may just be part of the problem. You guys a few years ago, thought the environmental changes weren't man made. well???? the fact is that man is ruining the earth through technology, greed, and the well being of the economy. How long will it be before the gaping holes in the ozone affect humans....... oh wait it already
has. Cell phone use and the radiation involved is not overly studied, but the facts do lead us in the direction that its not good for us. Wake up WORLD the plant is dying and so is our food source.......next us???????
last fall was to wet for the bees to collect food for the winter..bees do not come out when its cool wet outside ..they dont like to get there wings wet ...no food they die
Seriously, must the word massacre come up to describe everything (referring to the title of this artical)? Hundreds of thousands of people get killed and it's a 'massacre'. Now bees get killed and that also is a 'massacre'. 33 people get murdered and that's a 'massacre'. Look up the word massacre... it refers to a MASS NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
Since all of the guys posting here are cell phone/bee experts, then these guys 'posing' as scientists must be wrong... right?
You know what... that thing with the world being round instead of flat, that must of happened overnight as well. Some times these findings just occur... eureka moments as it were. Penicillin was only mold on bread before that fateful day.
Give these scientists a break. Risking your reputation on something like this isn't done lightly. For those who are taking shots at this story due to lack of evidence, would you propose Google to post 5+ years of scientific data on each article? Would you read it all, or even understand the majority of it if they did?
Sorry if I offended anyone, but sticking your head in the sand with a 'That's not what my grand pappy told me' approach just isn't cutting it anymore.
Soon we will be living in a world flooded by the melted icecaps, with no ozone to protect you from the sun and no food to eat… maybe not though, what does a scientist know about natural science anyway.
The loss of bees is a concern. It seems to me that bees teach us alot about love. Perhaps they are disappearing because we've forgotten to love and care for all life. I'm sure cell phones have some influence in the disapearance of the bees too. Unfortunately its hard to 'see' where the radiation waves are. Perhaps other unseen forces like radio waves are also influencing the bees. Maybe the combination of it all is overwhelming them. Its certainly a better theory than that aliens are abducting them, (which might explain why the hives are left undisturbed).
As others have pointed out, the number of cell phones and towers has been increasing over the past ten years, along with other sources of microwave radiation, such as satellites and GPS (every square inch of the earth is now irradiated), WiFi, wireless internet, and radio-read electric meters, which always emit a microwave signal. Anyone who thinks we can just continue to increase the amount of radiation without any harmful effects either hasn't looked into it or doesn't want to know.
I like the whole 'love' theory, it just works.
For some less sensationalist reporting, read the Guardian:
'The study led by Jochen Kuhn put DECT phone base stations - like home cordless phones - inside two honeybee colonies, and left two others alone... Bees in one of the DECT-ed colonies didn't return 45 minutes after being set free 800 metres away, while the others were back by 35 minutes. Collapse? Not necessarily: no more measurements were taken after 45 minutes, so they might all have returned after then. (Perhaps they were out gathering pollen.)
'Our studies cannot indicate that electromagnetic radiation is a cause of CCD,' Kuhn said earlier this week.'
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