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The Real Abraham Lincoln Feb. 14 on Nat Geo
By April MacIntyre Feb 14, 2009, 20:26 GMT
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Older Talkback
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Lincoln caused hundreds of thousands of Americans to die for nothing. Slavery was on its way out in the Americas even though it had been practiced for thousands of years in Africa by Africans and in many other places. This war did not have to happen. Non-violence is the answer. I just wish the black folks of today really did practice non-violence and were against slavery. Welfare is also a type of slavery against working people, so many of us are still not free. End slavery and stop welfare now.
The war did not have to happen?
It is interesting that people like Mr. Jones equate welfare with slavery, implying of course, that blacks are somehow inferior because they live on the white man's taxes. His statement not only shows his racism but his ignorance. Overwhelmingly, more white people use the welfare system than do blacks. Even though we have elected a black president, which would not have been possible without the support of whites, there are still those who hold fast to the old stereotypes.
True enough, the war did not need to happen. Of course, southern states didn't need to suceed at Lincoln's election but they did. Would we have been better off if the war did not happen, and the U.S. was devided into two countries? I think that is a pretty tough argument to make.
Was slavery about to end in 1860? That seems very unlikely given the South's increasing economic dependence on it.
The south seceded before Lincoln's inauguration.
Who attacked who at Fort Sumter?
States don't have the right to commit acts of treason.
The only thing the Confederacy produced was from the labor of slaves.
And Moon Shine.
If not for Lincoln The Confederacy would be part of UK.
>It is interesting that people like Mr. Jones equate welfare with slavery, implying of course...<
You miss his point completely. Blacks are dependent on welfare, not enslaved by it. Welfare has done nothing for black people other than kept them poor.
there are more whites than blacks on welfare anyway genius turn off rush limbaugh and read a book
It is so funny to me how some people feel as though african americans are always to blame for societal ills. Black people may be on welfare (not all of us but some of us) but who created the system in the first place. If the welfare system was truly created to help those in need then why didn't they have systems in place to educate those receiving assistance instead of allowing them to continue to feed off of the system. Could it be that they wanted these people to be held back so they made it easy for them to just sit back and do nothing. I mean really the government could have cut the welfare program a long time ago, they knew what the problems were but they did nothing to fix it. I think that as a country we need to stop blaming the victims of a system that was set out to destroy a segment of our society. I mean did you know that when a women was on welfare she could not have a man living with her. How does that make sense? If welfare was supposed to help people then why would you not want a family to be together and help them collectively and not destroy them. Maybe some of you who are so quick to pass judgement should go out and speak to a welfare recipient and get there opinions on the system. I am sure that they don't love being on welfare. Peace and love!!
Regardless of our opinion of whether the war needed to happen or not, It did. The south lost and the union was restored. At the end of the day, what happened is history. Leave it at that and get on with your life.
Non-violence only works if all sides practice it. Those not prepared to fight for their freedoms will surely lose them. With all due credit to Mr. Gandhi, a great many of history's turning points occurred on the battlefield, not in the parlor during polite discussion at afternoon tea.
War is horrendous, but sometimes the alternatives are worse.
Elrey Jones is in some ways correct and the elitist posters here need to recognize that. Slavery WAS on the way out, machines were replacing planters and the machines' upkeep costs were much lower than people. Had everyone kept their heads, things would have taken care of themselves as they did in many other locations around the world. The war could not be avoided, though, because the South split the Democratic vote and refused to give Lincoln any chance at all to keep the nation whole.
Welfare continues to hold the poor down because, just like CEOs at the top of companies, they know they can make as many poor choices as they want because the government will bail them out before blood hits the streets. Stop hiding behind the race card and worrying someone will be offended, recognize the problems in the country, and fix them.
'The country was unprepared for war when it broke out in April 1961. One German observer said that the American Civil War was like watching two armed mobs chasing each other across the countryside.'
Yeah, that second Civil War back in the 1960's doesn't get talked about too much, but it was epic. The Battle of Haight Street, General Nixon's legendary mounted charge into Greenwich Village, thousands of Hippie irregulars lurching into hand-to-hand combat high as kites...
Rush Limbo is just a radio entertainer....thats all...nothing more....all he wants is ratings for his show....thats why he keeps stiring up folks...
Slavery is and always will be an unneeded part of society. It is a part oof our history and cannot be deleted....we must remember it...and move on.
Lincoln was a good president, Booth was a murderer. That is history.
We all need to pull together now...and fix our nation, bring back jobs to America, and heal our nation.
olehippy13
former vietnam medic
lifelong falcon fan
slavery would have ended naturally, buried under the weight of its own inefficiency. rather than devoting energy and money to enslave a man, devote it to paying him(or her)and you have a worker. the rest of civilization didn't need to murder half a million young men to abolish slavery.
regarding welfare, i can only quote claude levi-strauss: 'gifts make slaves.'
regarding lincoln: his was the first shredding of the united states constitution with the suspension of habeus corpus, and america hasn't turned back since. if he hadn't been sent to hell by jw boothe his martyrdom wouldn't have produced this twisted cult of personality that's grown up around him, and he'd take his rightful place as one of history's greatest butchers, instead of some school-room guardian angel.
whatever you feel about bush and cheney, please remember lincoln; and instead of drinking the kool-aid, consider the possibility that those school books might not be the absolute truth that you took for granted.
If you really want to read another perspective of Lincoln's legacy go to the Patriotpost.com web site.
The perspective described therein is not significantly different from other information passed down from my great grandfather who lived and fought in the “War Between the States”, which by the way was not a Civil War. The south did not want to take over the federal government. If so the war could have been defined as a civil war.
The southern states only wanted to be left alone to determine their own destiny as the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights guaranteed, without federal intervention.
Happy reading and hope someone wakes up to another version of history different from what the main stream media wants us to believe.
As an Hispanic man, I see prejudice in the world but that does not deter me from going to school, working hard, taking responsibility for my actions. I therefore feel all others, no matter their color, can do the same. I am a man of peice and wish war would never happen, but know the reality of life and feel Lincoln did his best in a very bad situation. In a perfect world there would have never been, nor ever would be war, but our world is far from perfect. All I know is I'm glad black, white, brown, red, and yellow people are all free. I'm glad we have a man like Obama in office no matter his color. I'm glad Lincoln fought for the freedom of all slaves. It was a bad war that resulted in a long struggle for true freedom.
Typo noted:
War broke out in 1860, not 1960...
Cheers))
Elrey expressed an opinion that does hold many truths. Slavery is a very old institution and it was practiced by Africans before the American slave trade started. Can anyone deny that? No, you can't. Welfare has been a complete failure for all people. Welfare takes away the most basic human dignity of hard work, sacrifice, and hope. You all know that so get off your high horse.
The war was not about slavery per se and was not fought to free the slaves. The war was fought becuase Lincoln and the North believed that once a state joined the Union by consent of the other states, the only way a state could leave the Union was with the consent of those same other states. The south beleived that they had 'states rights' that the Federal government was usurping. The Union believed that once the Confederate Sates of America was constituted, the Union still had the right to collect duties and fees and maintain 'former' Union government property within the CSA. The CSA disagreed and fired on Fort Sumter to force the Union soldiers to leave South Carolina. The war was fought not so much to free the slaves but to preserve the union.
I don't understand the assertion that slavery would have died out without the war. Slaves were not just used for agriculture. They were used anywhere labor was needed, even in domestic positions like cooking and for sex. Who would have built, operated and repaired the mechanical farming equipment?
Also, the war was a statement that slavery was wrong for this country and would no longer be tolerated at any cost. Where would race relations be today without that statement even if slavery had died out on its own?
Many have paid a high price for the freedoms this county provides to its citizens. We have a responsibility to recognize those freedoms and to not give up even a small part.
Maybe the war itself was fought to end unfair taxation of the southern growers, and unfair business practices enacted by Lincoln and his followers, next time we will win..!!!
One thing that is very important that no one brings into light. Is that he kept the country out of dept. By allowing the government to print its own money and not allowing the banks to take control, as they do now. He 100% funded his campaign or war with green backs. Printed by the United stated government and not a separate bank or corporation, like the Federal Reserve. No dept created. Even after the war people across this nation had savings and paid for there homes and cars with no banks needed. Banks where just used for savings. He was one of the greatest presidents in US history. I believe he was assassinated for this reason.
He was at war with powers in the banking field. Bank of England funded the souths ability to keep the war going. They wanted Lincoln out and their banking policies in.... Which accord in 1913 or 14 when Federal Reserved act came to be. From that day forward American Tax payers became in dept and inflation became a huge factor on all human beings as of today....
I'm very proud of our country. It has produced men like lincoln and Obama. Lincoln was the right man at the right time. The United States was torn by sectional strife and war and he helped to reunite it but at a terrible cost both to the nation, South, and North and to himself..
Now our country is in another period of strife of war and economic inst
instability and another man has been raised up to lead us back to the promise of what our country represents. Freedom, equality and prosperity for all is the promise and Mr. Obama is the person that are hopes are placed. But one man can't do it all it's up to all of us to leave our personal agendas behind and work for the greater good of our country.
Slavery on it's way out in 1860??? I hardly think so. Not in the southern states anyway. Whoever believes that is being misled. Move to a key southern state and check out the history! The civil war supposedly freed the slaves but it only took another 100 years to give them any kind of rights. I hope all of this stuff is now history. Good thing our president won a key number of northern states with large electoral college votes.
I am always amazed at how entrenched racism and idiocy can be. The American Civil War happened when it did and no amount of second guessing can change that.
Whether Africans practised slavery or not is secondary to the fact that it was and remains morally wrong...and no other race by the way, including the genocide of Genghis Khan has equalled what the modern European has done in the last 300 years..especially in the last two so called World Wars.
No part of the human race has a patent on stupidity and/genius, or right and wrong.
70 years ago, the Germans and Japanese shocked the world by practising what the Europeans did in Africa in the preceding years, slaved labour (travaux force in West Africa or Corve in the Congo or the genocide of the Hereros in what is now Namibia or the genocide of the Native peoples in North Africa and the subjugation of the natives in Latin America). Today we watch Israel revisit the horrors of the Warsaw Ghetto or the Japanese attack on Peking on the Palestinians and Lebanese, with the arms and ammunitions bought and paid for by the US of A.
So kindly give us a break about the tried and failed and stale racists arguments of welfare and quota queens...we see what revamped and repackaged racist baggage got us, after a civil war, jim crow and segregation, we got Reagan, Bush and greed as well as Nazi-Zionist Israel, the neo-cons and the alqaeda-taliban jihadists funded and paid for by US tax payers (oops I mean taxes on the middle class, and debt from China) while the rich continue to soak the rest...
Wake up...folks...the right wing is up in arms over the Economic Stimulus bill but not the billions stolen by the KBR-Haliburton Bush-Cheney puppet masters and thousands of american lives in futile wars, masterminded and paid for by the self same neo-cons.
Maybe the folly of slave mercantilist so called capitalism has come to its natural conclusion...he who mus destroy to succeed will find destruction as the sentinel at his success (or something like that)..
I urge all who pass judgment on people of a race other than their own to consider, before speaking, with honesty, what they would be doing in a situation similar to what they ASSUME is the other person's situation. I for example am a reasonably well-off white female. If I were poor, had children to support, and could not find a job that would allow me to care for them, you'd better believe I'd demand all the welfare I could lay my hands on, and anyone who says they wouldn't is just either lying or capable of abusing children. Furthermore, I BELIEVE all human beings have the right to life, meaning they have the right to food and shelter and some basic education and equality of opportunity to get jobs, courtesy of the taxpayer if need be. I mean, come on, people, if we've got the tax dollars to enrich and I do mean ENRICH the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney through the mis-directing of funds to the companies they share ownership of, we sure as hell can afford to give some struggling mother money to support her kids. If we've got the bucks to drop more tons of bombs on the civilians of Iraq than were ever dropped during WWII, and bombs don't come cheap, we certainly can pay for poor kids' medical needs. Those tax dollars, after all, are from hard-working people to help their fellow Americans, not to pad people's trust funds or kill foreigners who haven't attacked us.
'Overwhelmingly, more white people use the welfare system than do blacks.'
Is that because America is comprised of 75% Caucasions and 12% African Americans? What is the ratio of Caucasions to African Americans on public assistance? Unless there are more than 6.25 Caucasions for each African American your numbers are way off. Of course there are more caucasions on welfare than african americans... there is almost a 6 to 1 ratio...
Black, white, yellow, red. Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jew. Rich, poor, middle class. Red hair, blonde hair, brown hair.
It doesn't matter. Since the first band of modern humans migrated out of Africa 150,000 we have always waged war, stratified socially, had outcasts, etc.
This is human. Always has been, always will be.
When the South left the United States and fired on Fort Sumter, they established a New Constitution for their new country. The only difference between their Constitution and the one made in 1793 was that slavery would be legal forever in each state. They loved the idea of slavery so much they destroyed their beloved states and thousands of lives as well.
But of course a few years later old Jim Crow came along and still lives here and there all over the country.
Why was it important to keep the Union together? And to who would it have been important?
I will say this, the war was not about civil rights. It was about creating a strong unified federal government that would allow no extra-national loyalties or sympathies. The US could not have built the Panama canal, become a Pacific naval power or become dominate as the top world power of the 20th century if the South had been allowed to be independent. The British would have likely done these things instead, to America's determent. Much the same way that France attempted to use Mexico and Nicaragua as a spring board for the same goals. France failed, but Britain could have succeeded as it did in India and Africa.
No one will know what would have happened if the CSA had been allowed to go its own way. But, certainly it would have been a hindrance to the US becoming a true continental power. Reconstruction ended once the South become an American backwater in most complete sense. It became a national embarrassment by the 1950's and 60's. The USSR's propaganda even targeted the irony of American 'freedom,' when segregation laws existed. It took one hundred years to really begin the civil rights phase of the reconstruction. Yet it took only ten to end occupation of the South, in which time the main goals of the war were attained. The feudal economic system of the South was destroyed and it was brought into the orbit of the North's industrial economic system. Mission accomplished, 1877.
The War Between the States was simply not fought over slavery at all. The north cared nothing about freeing them to begin with and, believe it or not, slavery was dying all over America at the time. There had already been two states get rid of it in their state constitution, there were many more in the process, and they had already ruled that slavery wouldn't be allowed in any of the new states as the US expanded westward. Especially Lincoln didn't care about the slaves. He was very outspoken for many years about what his plan was to do with the slaves. His plan was to 'emancipate' them and then literally ship them back to Africa because he did not believe that they had the right to live in the same country as whites. His stance on slavery only changed whenever he realized that they would be a great asset to use in fighting the war, which is why he 'freed' them in the Emancipation Proclamation, only to use them to fight the war. He was a political genius but unfortunately a terrible president who brought many troubles to this country, including a lot of what we are dealing with today due to his Nationalization policies.
Saying that 'Overwhelmingly, more white people use the welfare system than do blacks.' which one of the commentors said is a little misleading...Blacks make up on 13% of the population, so ofcourse there are more whites on welfare..but as a percentage there are far more blacks on welfare.
In one comment, its stated 'Black people may be on welfare ( not all of us but some of us). I would assumne this person is black.
They go on to say.. ' but who created the system'? If it was created to help those in need then why didn't they have a system to eduacte us too'? They meaning white people..? My God...isnt there any accountibilty..?
Now the Black community blames 'them' ( whites ) for creating welfare..!
Now the Black commmunity blames ' them '( meanaing whites) for blacks getting welfare...!
Now the black community blames ' them' ( meaning white people) for not eduacting them on how to get off welfare..!
Then the black community blames them, ( meaning white people ) for not cutting / stopping welfare....!!
You gotta be kidding..?
What do you think would happen if welfare was stopped today...? The black community would claim its prejudice agianst blacks..!
Can't anyone blame themselves for not finding a job..? If a black person is poor or uneducated its the white communities fault. If they are successfull it's becasue they themselves worked hard.
Wasn't JEREMIAH A. WRIGHT JR., the one who said, if Obamma gets elected we may not be able to keep using the white community as an excuse..!
1. Lincoln, nor his Emancipation Proclamation, freed slaves.
2. Licoln was a racist....read his letters.
Negro equality? Fudge!' -- Abraham Lincoln, Fragments: Notes for Speeches, Sept. 1859 (Vol. III)
'If I could save The Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it' -- Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to Horace Greeley
'I am a little uneasy about the abolishment of slavery in this District [of Columbia].' -- Abraham Lincoln, 1862
'The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people.' -- Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854
'Free them, and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this.... We cannot, then, make them equals.' -- Abraham Lincoln, 'Lincoln's Reply to Douglas,' p. 444
'What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races.' -- Abraham Lincoln, Spoken at Springfield, Illinois on July 17th, 1858; from Abraham Lincoln: Complete Works, 1894, Volume 1, page 273
'I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.' Abraham Lincoln's Inaugural Address on the Capitol steps, 1861
4. When Abraham Lincoln was alive he was mocked and ridiculed and hated and despised. Even his infamous Gettysburg Address was viewed and pronounced as a failure by himself, by Secretary of State William Seward, by Edward Everett, who also spoke on that occasion and by W.H. Cunningham, who was a reporter for the Montgomery Missouri Star, who was there when he gave the address. But after his death, everything changed.
5. How Honest Abe really felt about secession:
'Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and to form one that suits them better. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may make their own of such territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority intermingling with or near them who oppose their movement.' -- Abraham Lincoln on the floor of Congress, January 12, 1848, Congressional Globe, Appendix 1st Session 30th Congress, page 94
6. Did you know that Abraham Lincoln practically imposed a dictatorship on the Northern states, closed down nearly 300 Northern newspapers, had thousands of Northerners arrested, invaded the Northern states of Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri and took over their legislatures, all because those three sovereign states didn't want to participate in his war which they considered unconstitutional.
The Writ of Habeas Corpus was suspended by Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War, during which tens of thousands of antiwar Northerners were imprisoned for voicing their views. Lincoln issued an arrest warrant for the Supreme Court Chief Justice when he correctly ruled that according to Article I of the Constitution, only Congress, not the president, could suspend the Great Writ of Habeas Corpus.
7. The Confederate States were a people fighting for freedom from a Stalinist government. Exactly what was the Union fighting for??
Lincoln killed more Americans than Hitler and Tojo combined.
SO WHY CAN'T WE KNOW THE TRUTH?? STOP IDOLIZING LINCOLN !!
In reading the comments I now realize that the South indeed is not dead. The same attitudes that fueled the Civil War are still alive and well. I remember my grandmother telling me that as late as 1964 you could not purchase an American Flag in St. Petersburg Fl. Lincoln was not perfect, but he did understand that his job as President was to preserve the union.
The seeds of the Civil War were sown almost as soon as the ink dried on the Constitution. By our standards today, Lincoln was indeed a racist. By the standards of 1840 to 1865 Lincoln was very progressive. As for the length of the war, Lincoln went through several generals who refused to engage the enemy until Grant finally rose to the top. Several times he was pressured to remove Grant, to which he would reply 'but he fights.'
Those in the South may hate Lincoln, but the aftermath of the war was made far worse by his assasination. He was the moderating force among a federal government that wanted revenge. All Booth did was clear the way for those who wanted revenge.
Elite nannering. It is still the case that if you are wiped out and starting over, or are starting from ordinary beginnings, WHAT you know will only get you into trouble. WHO you know, and HOW - the manner of- your heeling, will get you to a stable life from which you can begin to entrepreneur (so to speak.) In that order, only. Welfare is imperialism and rightfully deserves fear, if not outright scorn, until we no longer maintain any substantial military presence in the world. What we have to deal with is a perverted economy in which individuals are irrelevant and to which we are all indentured to the military and its related banking system. Develop a sustainable domestic economy, and then we can stop this bickering, if that is in fact what Americans wish for.
ITS FUNNY HOW PEOPLE OF THIS GENERATION SAY THAT THE WAR SHOULDNT HAPPEN BUT WE NOW HAVE TURNED WAR INTO A BUSINESS, AND WE OUT THERE KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE, HOW COME THESE SAME PEOPLE DONT WANT TO STOP THESE WAR? I GUESS IT IS EASY TO CRITIZES OTHERS BUT NOT HOLD OUR SELF TO THE SAME STANDARD. INSTEAD OF SITTING IN YOUR WARM CHAIRS AND TALKING NONSENSE, GO STOP THESE WARS THAT ARE GOING ON IN THE NAME OF DEMOCRACY OR FREEDOM OR WHATEVER, JUST GO STOP THE WAR OF PRESENT.
obama is not lincoln
But he sure does want to be. And let's hope for all of our sakes that he doesn't succeed in that.
Ther are actually more blacks on welfare than whites. Blacks make up about 13-14% of the total population while 1 in 3 are on some government assitance. The precentage for whites is far lower. While the total number of whites on welfare is greater than blakcs they make up a much greater part of the population. If they were equal the number of blacks on welfare would far outnumber whites.
Ther are actually more blacks on welfare than whites. Blacks make up about 13-14% of the total population while 1 in 3 are on some government assitance. The precentage for whites is far lower. While the total number of whites on welfare is greater than blacks they make up a much greater part of the population. If they were equal the number of blacks on welfare would far outnumber whites.
And oh yes and those are the statistical facts
>there are more whites than blacks on welfare anyway genius turn off rush limbaugh and read a book<
Okay idiot, there are about 5 times as many white people (in the US) as there are blacks
I no how 2 fix everthin and I kin pos my importint opinyun on intarweb u lissen 2 me plz becuz whaat I say on hear is rellyvant and wize and meaninfull
the north should have let the south go. it was a contagion on american democracy, a racist oligarchy. even today, it's dominated right wing extremists. had the north let it secede, it would have swiftly collapsed with neither an industrial base nor a middle class. like brazil, it would have been forced to free the slaves of it's own accord in order to develop a less pathological economy - and maintain relations with europe. or better still - it could have had a Haitian style revolution and the slave holder would have been put in chains! either way - we in the north wouldn't have had to deal with george bush, strom thurmand, pat robertson, newt gingrich, and the list goes on...
I cannot believe some of the comments listed here. What has made this country great is the diversity of the people. As always we have a group of people in each race cannot get past racism. That is so primitive that it is unbelievable we still suffer from this. This is no different than people who discriminate against age, wealth, class etc. This country has so many problems that need to be resolved that we cannot waste time with such primitive thinking people. Why don't you do something great and help each other and unite this country. Listen young people do not make the same mistakes that past generations have made. You have it in your power to make change and learn tolerance. Understand the values this country was founded on and demonstrate to the entire world what we stand for.
E. Jones, to say slavery 'was on its way out' shows you are clueless. While race relations were poor in the Northeast far into the last century, they were horrendous in the South. As a young man stationed in Charleston, S.C. in 1983, a black friend and I went to church together (the Church is on Dorchester Rd.). Coming from NJ, I never thought a thing about it. My girlfriend who was a member, later told me it caused a stir because blacks don't go to Church there. I was shocked. After graduating from college, I went to work for a Fortune 500 company in Columbia, S.C. (this was the early 90s). A 'Senior' exec. said the 'N' word in a meeting and the room of employees laughed. I have SCORES of stories like that. It was just a couple years later I moved to back to the Northeast. I believe from my experience, if slavery could be named something else and given a positive spin, that there would still be quite a bit of support for it down there.
With all due respect can white people talk about race with out being called racist? It has been my experience that minorities in this country are far more racial and racist than whites now days. As for the welfare comment 37 percent of the nations welfare users are black. Yet blacks only make up 12.5 percent of the population. The evidence speaks for itself. Don't blame the nation for making it available, no one forces anyone to take it. You are not supposed to like being on it. I couldn't find the percent of welfare used by hispanics but I found... 'An estimated 33.9 percent of households headed by legal Mexican immigrants and 24.9 percent headed by illegal Mexican immigrants used at least one major welfare program.' That is not all hispanics that is just the Mexican ones.
I do not hate at all or dislike because of race but when a culture makes a reputation for themselves I think it would be stupid to over look the facts because one doesn't want to hurt feelings or be called racist. If I'm racist because minorities are on welfare and you think that way you are too ignorant to understand reason and your opinion means nothing to me. I can go on but am tired and tired of people whining about race.
I do not think gangsta thugs or and making people live in fear is what any of our ancestors wanted black, mexican or white. It's about respect and if one gives it they deserve it. If you embrace the true America, the hard working, earn it America then you earn respect. There are several of these in all races and then there is the media shown bad ones that make money destroying the minds of others.
6 philaphelia cops have been murdered on the line of duty in less than 2 years ... im not sayin race or what not i think its lack of education coupled with the 'rap' mentality ( as an eduacation major there are serious deficiancies in the system)... i sometimes listen to hip hop .... the roots ...philly based ... great ppl ... but the stop snitchin mentalitly needs to stoop ... i kno this doesnt relate per saay to the topic its to us as americans ... we need to take pride in our communities and our children and try n change things......
sigle white female
START SNITCHIN!
I was born in Illinois where Lincoln is idolized and the South is villainized (at least in a historical perspective), but I've spent most of my life in the South. Needless to say, it's like two different worlds. But there's one thing that seems universal in human nature to me, which is intolerance and disrespect for others viewpoints. I'm not suggesting that anyone should consider that which is offensive or hurtful, either towards a race or a culture or even a geographic location. The argument going on in comments about whether there are more blacks or more whites on welfare strikes me as particularly ignorant. The attitude that the South is full of racists is also irritating. Do a little traveling and you'll discover that racists come in all colors and locations, as do decent people who treat others with respect. Whether you consider Lincoln a hero or some kind of criminal, that's your opinion..., which may or may not be influenced by where you grew up or what you were taught. Maybe you've come to your own conclusions through your own research, experience or consideration... it doesn't matter. My point is that if you really want to sway someone who differs in opinion, you'll never do it if you're being disrespectful about it and are unwilling to consider theirs.
Does the majority of people beleive that things have changed greatly since 1860? Or that the war ended slavery? Every comment that I read was written by a slave to someone else. We do as we are told and know our role. Doctors and lawyers are only among middle class. Where does that put the rest of us? We struggle on income not sufficient to adaquately support ourselves and our loved ones so others can profit from our blood and sweat. Lincoln threatened the idea of loosing the low cost workforce and the wealthy opposed. If anyone told them today to set us free there would be another civil war. Slavery is so widespead you not only slave for your boss at work but everyone he works for up to the highest ranks.
As for welfare being an agent of slavery for african americans, you must be kidding. Latino, white, there are no racial boundries on welfare. If you earn $20,000 and have any children, you yourself could be a candidate for welfare. Are you enslaved by welfare or by some other cause. The humorus part is that $20,000 wouldn't be a comfortable earning for even one person. That's more than alot of families live on today. So anyone who thinks a little free food or medical care for a child is wrong, need reconsider. So not only are we slaving for the wealthy but also for the wealthy to designate a small portion and provide sub-standard care for the absolute poor. Very sub-standard not even compareable to even the worst health insurance plans. I guess it's true what you don't know can't hurt you, or can it?
It's not called 'welfare' any more. The term is 'entitlement'. Apparently people are now entitled to receive free government handouts.
Lincolns fight to abolish slavery? Amazing how the historians have put a spin on Lincoln to make him look like a hero.
'My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it'
Lincoln is the father of big government. That is his legacy. The southern states left because they wanted to keep their rights as given in the 10th amendment. Read the Emancipation Proclimation. The only slaves that were freed at that time were those in Southern held areas. It specifies which areas (Union held) where slaves would not be free. It was simply a war stratagy. Slavery was coming to an end eventually, so the historians used that to make Lincoln look like a hero.
I leave you with this Lincoln quote that they never teach you in school.
'I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.'
If the Republicans hadn't removed Hanibal Hamlin (Whose great-uncles spelled there names Hamlin - Hamblin and Hamblen) from the Vice Presidents office Lincoln probably wouldn't have been assassinated. Hanibal was a radical anti-slavery but he was replaced by Johnson an ex Governor of Tennessee who was seen as more favorable to the south.
Presedent Lincoln was a great man who lead all AMERICANS through a bloody and historic time in our countrys history. We should look back on it as a leeson in where we have been and where we are going.We look to racism as an argument too much today when every one should work together to better the lives of millions who do without and suffer the circumstances there born in.
When I read the many comments here I realize that as individuals we are generally more concerned in promoting our agendas and points of view than we are with working toward a solution. My 4th grade teacher would always say 'If you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.' It was a challenge to me to do what I could to make a difference in 'my world.'
One major point that is interesting to me -- President Obama has seemingly been trying to tie himself to Lincoln's image. From his train ride to DC to his different comments and actions. Does this mean that another Senator from Illinois is leading us into big government and the removal of more individual rights?
This special offered no new facts and included enough inaccuracies that I turned to another channel after about twenty minutes .
What? No mention of the Surratt family or the other Catholic conspirators?
Mary Surratt was the first woman ever executed by the US military and still no mention of the real plotters behind the assassination. John Surratt got away with everything because he laid while the Vatican protected him while he worked on his defense trial.
Who do we all think was being the Sounths anger?
Because it was the bible that said slavery was justified and they were behind much of the slave trade. Theres letters of communication between the Souths President Jefferson Davis and the Pope, come on now.
John Surratt, Catholic, Papal Zouave and Confederate Secret Service
Mary Surratt, Catholic
Lewis Powell, Catholic and Confederate Secret Service
Samuel Mudd, Catholic
George Atzerodt, Catholic
David Herold, Catholic and Jesuit educated
Edmund Spangler, Catholic
Heck, even the man that killed Booth, Boston Corbett, was imitating the life of St Ignatius Loyola, living in the sides of dug out hills and castrated himself to prevent being tempted by prostitutes.
They knew back then it was a Catholic conspiracy, and it has all been white washed over the last 200 years.
And dont get me started on the Catholic connections to the assassinations of JFK, RFK, Pope John Paul I, and the attempts on Pope John Paul II and Reagan. But for some reason, we seem to believe its only the Muslims that can be religious fanatics that use terrorism. Even though its the Jesuits that were the first terrorist masters, which was created by the Borgia family that were also considered to be the first Mafia family.
But I am just anti-Catholic. Even though I come from a Catholic family on my fathers side and had no particular issue with them until I began looking at who was really behind 9/11. If you want to see some of the real terrorist names behind 9/11 go to Wikipedias Notable Alumni section for the Edmund A Walsh School of Foreign Service. As for JFK and the others look into the Jesuit family connections of Allen Dulles, James J Rowley, Alexander Haig, Pedro Arrupe, and Pope Paul VI.
At some point America is going to have to figure out that the source of many of Americas problems begin with Georgetown and the Jesuits influence on our countries policies. If the Jesuits had not been ordered suppressed in 1773, there would not have been a 1776.
Agree with you Ron... events, milestones, and the history of our world culminate in our evolution... learn from the past... and let us move forward... will we not ever rid ourselves of BLAME...
Lincoln was EASILY the worst president ever to blight this nation, and the fact that most Americans deify him is a testimony to the success of nefarious and wealthy forces who have sought to manipulate our education and our history to complement their statist goals.
Fawning, ignorant articles like this make me disgusted to be a US citizen.
This is for Ron:
It has very little to do with whether the North or South won. As you say that's all part of history.
It has to do with our present ability to recognize, and possibly avoid, 'necessary wars'. Do we learn anything from our previous wars, or are they simply inevitable?
There is slavery in the world today.
Early German immigrants were signed into indentured sevitude, a form of slavery. German immigrants spoke out against slavery in the early 1600's.
Irish immigrants did work that threatened life and limb and were considered expendable, because the slave owners did not want to risk their 'property'.
The point is: extreme wealth is not interested in race per se; but profits, and the power extreme wealth can buy.
The founding fathers imposed taxes on the wealthy because they knew that extreme wealth= extreme power= tyranny and coruption. They had fought a revolution to free themselves of a corrupt and tyrannical aristocracy.
Anytime someone gets close to either: awaking the masses to the true nature of their oppression, or limiting extreme wealth, assasination is the result.
Lincoln; Martin Luther King; Huey Long; the list goes on and on.
Look at our situation today, two wars and a 25% top marginal tax rate, thanks to Reagan and then Bush 2. During WWII the top rate was 97%. Under the Eisenhower, a Republican and war hero, the top rate was 91% and stayed that way until 1964 when the rate dropped to 74%.
When Reagan took office the top rate was 70%, he cut this to 28% and paid for the loss with deficit spending, the rest is history.
Check it out, because something is not right...
Believing that the War Between the States was fought to free slaves is much like believing Bush and Cheney's version of the war in Iraq; we freed an enslaved population and we are the good guys. As a side-effect, we may have helped some people. However, that is not at all why we went to war.
As a southerner who travels extensively, I can tell you that there is a horrible prejudice against white southerners. This is the result of decades and decades of propaganda created by people who would love to see their side recorded as the 'good guys' of history.
The truth is that black people were considered inferior by almost all Northern and Southern Americans during that era. It was wrong all over. There were no true good or bad guys; just a bunch of greedy people creating a war over the usual power and money.
After all, Lee was strongly against slavery while Grant had slaves and bragged about it. Sherman hated black people and cut a boat full of them loose to drown in a river(and many did). The Union paid its black soldiers half pay while the South paid full pay.
So if it makes you folks up north to feel better about yourselves to carry on this counterproductive chatter, go ahead. The truth is that both my ancestors and your ancestors grew up taught that black people were inferior. There is no glory to be found, only the sobering truth.
I say that prejudice is wrong against anyone, including southerners.
So if you want to practice what you preach, just realize that we all the same (good and bad people everywhere) and please drop this lame attempt to make yourselves both feel free of guilt and feel superior to someone else. Only then can we finally heal.
This article gives the impression that the program presents new information, but the items listed are all opinions that anyone even vaguely familiar with the life of Lincoln would already know about. Sounds like the same old establishment propaganda. Standard fare for Nat Geo channel, which exists to perpetuate conventional wisdom, not independent thinking.
The so-called civil war happened because the international bankers who controlled the North wanted to take over the South and expanded the power of the Federal government and make everybody their slaves.
Look Abraham Lincoln did not cause the American Civil War so get your facts straight it was caused South Carolina succeeding from the Union. And Abraham Lincoln was not going to end slavery he did that to punish the south for succeeding from the union. So do not say the war did not have to happen and if you want to bad mouth Abraham Lincoln go back to school and learn the true facts about this issue and blame if any one the South Carolina Legislature back in the early 1860. It is sad that some people still to this day think Abraham Lincoln was the cause. He is considered one of the greatest Presidents of our country and to me will always be one of the greatest.
Lincoln introduced a bill on Jan 10, 1849 to get rid of slavery in the District of Columbia. If he had been president instead of Polk, Texas would never have been annexed to the Union. There would have been no war with Mexico, no California, no SW, no land from sea to shining sea! It was because of slavery in Texas!
Lincoln and his Republican/Abolitionist Party wanted to abolish slavery and thus divided the nation. Then he started the Civil War which killed 500,000 whites and destroyed the South. AND HE IS PRAISED AS BEST PRESIDENT FOR SAVING THE UNION WHEN HE WAS THE ONE WHO DIVIDED IT! AND YOU DUMB PHOLKS BELIEVE IT.
Slavery is not a sin. God had laws regulating it. Paul told slaves not to care if they are called as slaves. But if they could make THEMSELVES free, they should. The onus is on the slave to free himself, NOT A WAR. I Cor. 7:14.
The North disobeyed God by not returning escaped slaves and sending them to Canada or hiding them in the states. Paul returned an escaped Christian slave to his owner and said he would pay the master reparations. Philemon.
The principle: Israelites were to be the head. Gentiles the tail. We are an Anglo-Saxon, Israelite nation. But we are great sinners so the curse on us is the tail becoming the head and the head becoming the tail. Thus BO.
Some say kidnapping blacks was wrong. Well what about Rome who conquered whole nations and made the peoples slaves. God, thru Paul told those slaves who became Christians not to worry but be happy.
This article is full of fantasies that have nothing to do with historical facts. Like wikipedia and others so called historical writings historical facts have little to do with their tells.
On second thought it this article is a good historical example of propaganda.
Back on Topic:
I found the show interesting..but I wondered about much of the voice-over dialogue. I suspect much of it was conjured up by the producers, who may have believed they got the perspectives right...but overall seem to force their perspective onto it, as well.
I noticed alot of teh Lincoln dialogue invoked christianity. And I am not so sure it was as central to his thoughts, as it was depicted in the program.
Next time NatGeo...should spare Us the voice-over. Unless it's 100 percent accurate to what they said or wrote.
Wow, a lot of Confederacy apologists here. Next they will be saying there was no holocaust. Slavery dying out? The war started because the South wasn't satisfied with Lincoln's offer for them to keep slavery where it was. The South insisted on expanding slavery to all the new states, as when they voted in Kansas-Nebraska Act to nullify the Missouri Compromise. One more thing: If you can't keep from connecting the word 'welfare' to African Americans, you are showing extreme ignorance and prejudice. Welfare is something that is used by many Americans: whites, blacks, hispanics, corporations, war profiteers, recipients of farm subsidies, CEOs receiving huge salaries while getting government bailouts, etc.
Everybody knows the ship is sinking,
Everybody knows that welfare's bad,
Everybody knows that things are rotten,
Old Black Joe is still picking cotton,
For your ribbon and your bows,
And Everybody knows.
Lincoln was the ORIGINAL republican war monger,, In fact he Created the WAR DEPARTMENT as we know it today,, America has not been the same since.
The Monday Morning quarterbacks who were not alive in Lincoln's day all seem to know what would have transpired if Lincoln had made a different decison. I want to know how many of them voted for George Bush and did they know what would come from his presidency?
The real story about Lincoln (as most history) is creatively rewritten by academians who like to put their on spin on things. Much like King James did when he asked his scholars to write an anglicized version of the Bible. Do not take what you learned at school as 'gospel' nor should you believe Rush Limbaugh or anyone else. Research the man yourself. You'll be surprised at what you turn up. And interesting that Mr. O always refers back to him -they're a lot alike.....very good orators, very bad policy makers...very good speech makers.....very bad socialists...
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