People News
Tom Cruise's bid for Scientology in Germany backfires
By Stone Martindale Dec 26, 2007, 16:38 GMT
Tom Cruise posing during a photo call for his film \'Lions for Lambs\' in Berlin, Germany. Cruise is to receive German media prize \'Bambi\' in the category \'Courage\', a spokesman for Hubert Burda Media announced in Offenburg, Germany, 27 November 2007. EPA/JOHANNES EISELE
Tom Cruise is reportedly "bitterly disappointed" because he worked hard to charm Germany into tolerating Scientology and it didn't work, according to Hollywood reporter Janet Charlton.
Scientology is not recognized as a religion in Germany.
A Church of Scientology statement said the ministers were "completely out of step with the rest of the world".
The attempted ban is "a blatant attempt at justifying the on-going and never-ending discrimination against the Church of Scientology and its members in Germany," said the Church in a statement.
Critics accuse the organiation of cult-type practices and exploiting followers for financial gain.
But Scientologists reject this and say that they promote a religion based on the understanding of the human spirit.
Charlton writes that when Tom attempted to film his latest movie "Valkyrie," about a 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler, on location in Germany, they turned him down flat - because of his ties to Scientology which they consider to be a "dangerous cult."
It took months to persuade Germany into allowing the filming.
While Tom was there he did everything in his power to appear normal and change people's minds about Scientology. Charlton writes that the star's "megawatt smile didn't work- he had barely returned to the US when Germany's top security officials ACCELERATED their efforts to ban Scientology."
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...L Ron Hubbard ADMITTED it was a scam....wake up!
The film Tom was part of roused interest in a past German war hero. Even in the darkest of times, noble men attempt to do the right thing. In today's international community, Germany is a major player and still produces some of the finest products on the market. But partly because of its earlier mistake, religiously, Germany is a conservative country. Two churches are state supported, donations for those are collected by Germany's government. The arrangement resists change because many paychecks are involved with religious donations by people, funneled through and dispersed by the German government.
Nobody 'banned' anything in Germany. A few out of step government ministers simply asked the German intelligence services to continue to try to find something on the Church of Scientology, which they have been unable to do for a years. The remnants of Fascism and graft will eventually die out in Germany and all religions will be accepted. As they should be.
All religions are fraudulent and should be stamped out.
Regarding the above comments, I would like to point out I respect a person's right to say 'All religions should be stamped out.' as much as I totally disagree with it. The same goes with statements regarding Fascism in Germany except that it borders on libel. The statement regarding Germany being conservative and having two state supported religions which are supported by state run tithing is as I understand it is pretty close to the truth although I've heard there is an option to not having it taken out so in this case it may not be libel although truth was left out. The one statement that would be libel would be the one regarding LRH admitting to Scientology being a scam. The author made no references to back his statement up. Perhaps he is referring to a statement made by LRH prior to establishing Scientology. Indeed the original Dianetics, as described by the book titled 'Dianetcs', seems to be sterile of the idea of a spiritual nature of man. He apparently found religion later on further research based on Dianetics which then became the basis for Scientology.
Here is proof...A Reader's Digest article of May 1980 quoted Hubbard as saying in the 1940s 'Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion.
Just google for 'The shrinking world of L Ron Hubbard', it was a british
documentary shot in the late 60's where they actually interview the man.
It can be watched online at any number of places. The reporter in it asks
Hubbard where all the money came for the sailing yacht came from, Hubbard
says that he was independently wealthy from before Scientology, I'll
leave it up to you to decide whether he's lying or not. The Scientologists on this thread who talk intimidatingly of libel suits can't
even watch stuff like this, they have net nanny software that blocks anything negative about Scientology.
I would also like to correct the statements made about the German church structure made by Terryeo. It is not true that there are 2 state supported churches, in fact Germany does not support any church unless you take in to account the donations are tax deductible. There is a church tax (8 - 9%) that is collected from people who declare themselves members of churches under the church tax structure. Churches have the choice of either collecting via the tax system or collecting themselves directly from their congregations. The 2 largest churches in Germany (Roman Catholic & Protestant) are under the tax structure but so are others. Other churches choose to self-collect as in the case of the Jewish Community of Berlin, while atheists declare no affiliation and pay neither. Now as far as being conservative I guess this could be very subjective but this has not been my experience. With approximately 28% of its citizens being unaffiliated with a religion it is behind only the Czech Republic 59% and the Netherlands 41% (EU wide) in this regard, which seems far from religious conservatism (Note: the US only has 10% in this category).
The question in Germany, and, indeed, in many other countries, is not whether there should be freedom of religion, but rather is the Church of Scientology a business or church.
The primary statistic used within the church of Scientology to determine its condition is Gross Income. Another is Value of (paid for) Services Delivered. All its outreach activities are focused on selling a book or service. Even their Volunteer Minister tents' primary purpose is sales.
And their hospitals, soup kitchens, clothing and shelter, helping the poor and needy activities? None.
Everything in the church, except for the introductory sales pitch movie or introductory sales pitch lecture, is available only for a set price.
Yes, it talks about 'spiritual' things, but it acts completely like a money-making business. It doesn't do charity work. It does do promotion, sales and delivery, that is: business things.
If it talks (kind of) like a religion, but acts only like a business, then what is it?
That's the question.
Scientology consists of extremists views.
Scientologists are taught to be intolerant to people whom they cannot convince to become a mini mind in the image of the master mind Ron Hubbard.
Scientologists love themselves as Scientologists & are extremely obsessive about keeping their congregation captivated.
Scientologists hate ex Scientologists & more ex Scientologists exist than do current followers of Scientology.
More so called declared suppressive persons exist than do current followers.
As a further note about church vs. business.
In general, governments, in recognizing a church, are NOT saying the religion is 'good' or 'valid'. In general, they are affirming that the church gives benefits of some undetermined value to the community, such as help to the needy, charity work, spiritual counseling. And that the community repays that by giving the church tax benefits.
The whole thing about governments recognizing a religion is all about taxes.
If the only 'benefits' the church provides are fully valued AND paid for, there is no reason to give the church any tax benefits -- they are fully compensated.
In other words, the exchange between the recipients of any benefits and the church is in balance, there is no uncompensated benefit to the community at large -- hence, no need for any tax benefits.
Bringing up religious freedom, in such a case, is misdirection.
Why must religions and businesses be mtually exclusive? Most religions deliver 'faith' and ask for endless 'donations' to support their continued survival. Scientology has a new look on asking for a set monetary exchange for delivering a technology which deals with spirit and answers age-old questions for mankind. Not so outrageous, actually.
Webster's New World dictionary defines 'religion' as a personal set or insitutionalized system of religious beliefs, attitudes or practices. Furthermore, 'religious' is defined as relating to or devoted to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity. This is Scientology.
None of the definitions pertaining to religion address the preferred or accepted method of financially supporting said spiritual pusuit, so where does this idea come from?
Let us think outside the box, eh? Look for youself and find your own truth. Following the herd over the cliff was never a good choice.
Dear Truthseeker,
You missed the point. Certainly an organization can sell religion as a profitable business. It can even call its business 'church'. I don't think that's a problem. But if so, it does (and should) lose any tax breaks.
As I stated before, government recognition is not about whether the religion is 'good' or 'valid', it is about helping organization who benefit the community and which receive no exchange for the work they do. That churches receive voluntary donations is NOT quid-pro-quo and usually does not cover all expenses. In addition, real churches do not REQUIRE donations for all their services.
Pay attention. The purpose of government recognition and tax benefits is to assist those organizations that benefit the community for no payment. Like I said: homeless shelters, soup kitchens, intervention, free counseling, other charities, clothing, food and so on. When one says 'church' this is often part of the picture one imagines.
If an organization sells religion for profit, runs like a business, and does NO CHARITY WORK, why should it get the tax benefits as if it were doing such things? What does the community owe such an organization? Nothing, everything is fully paid for.
What a business sells is immaterial. If it sells spoons or religion, if it only sells and does no charity work, it should be treated as it is: a business. I think the Church of Scientology SHOULD be free to operate its business, but I DON'T think religious tax benefits (which are what official government recognition is all about) are appropriate.
You can't have it both ways, or, at least, in a sane world you shouldn't have it both ways.
It isn't discrimination. It's about whether an organization deserves tax breaks based on its free charity work and other free services to the community.
I hate repeating myself, this is not a difficult concept.
One more thing. You say 'Scientology has a new look on asking for a set monetary exchange for delivering a technology which deals with spirit and answers age-old questions for mankind.'
This is NOT a new look. For ages there have been businesses selling all kinds of self-help, self-improvement, betterment services and products. While the technologies change, the concept is very, very old.
It's a business concept. It's not new and it isn't a religious concept. It's only a business plan, and not that different from any other business plan.
It's only unusual when you try to claim this business, somehow ISN'T really a business.
It talks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it has feathers, it flies, it swims ... but it's really a locomotive.
Um... no.
The attempted ban is 'a blatant attempt at justifying the on-going and never-ending discrimination against the Church of Scientology and its members in Germany,' said the Church in a statement.
If the Church of Scientology wanders why there is a never ending discrimination against them,they should LOOK to the never ending list of abuses committed by them.
'Fair Game',Disconnection and breaking up of families,and hiding behind Front groups of which there are many.If they want to be taken seriously as a Religion they need to stop the above and publically apolagize for all the wrong doing of the 'Church' over the years,going right back to the beginning,and compensate all the people who have suffered as a result of their abuses.
The 'Church' is an organization that pays commissions to those that bring in new persons and the Shill get commissions for all services that the new person pays for - sounds funny for a 'Church' eh?.
.
The use 'Bait-N-Switch' techniques - first your problems are caused by your 'You name it' and then after you get started all of your problems are 'handled' on the next level on and on - until either you are 'dead broke' or you give up - PERIOD! Cuz it don't really do nothin you didn't do on your own with a good friend to talk to.
.
Don't waste you time by not first checking out what they are all about at places like wwwxenunet first.
Good comments Peter Simple; I like where your heads at!!
L. Ron Hubbard had a sense of humor which apparently his detractors are missing.
I have never heard of a religious figure willing to be so bravely self effacing. I think it shows real hutzpa.
I like the fact that the religion that doesn't hide behind pomp and solemnity.
The attacks on Scientolgy are never about the substance of the philosophy but usually about incidentals that have nothing to do with the subject itself.
Anyone, scholars, governments and millions of individuals who have legitimately studied the subject have vouched for it's legitimacy and efficacy.
You can always spot the jokers as who parrot each other with the same derisive remarks over and over.
One wonders if they actually do have a life.
Scientology has made claims as to empowering people, all it takes is to move up the bridge. The more you study, the more money you spend or promise to pay the better you'll get. This includes at the top, the promise of super power, a goal reached at quite a lot of money. Has Scientology ever demonstrably delivered super power to it's followers?
Does Tom Cruise have proven super power? No, he has shown the world no special super powers coming from Scientology. Did anyone see how well his last film did in the theaters?
Scientology could be banned just on false advertising, and not its calculated shift by Hubbard to being a religion. Want more background, www.rickross.com. www.freedomofmind.com and google `operation clambake'.
L Ron Hubbard had a great sense of humor? Is that why he said stuff like
this about people who might criticize him?
'Attackers are simply an anti-Scientology propaganda agency so far as we are concerned. They have proven they want no facts and will only lie no matter what they discover. So BANISH all ideas that any fair hearing is intended and start our attack with their first breath. Never wait. Never talk about us - only them. Use their blood, sex, crime to get headlines. Don't use us.
I speak from 15 years of experience in this There has never yet been an attacker who was not reeking with crime. All we had to do was look for it and murder would come out.
They fear our Meter. They fear freedom. They fear the way we are growing. Why?
Because they have too much to hide.'
Hubbard, 'Attacks on Scientology', HCO Policy Letter of 15 Feb 1966
To Peter Simple:
Your arguement is based on the idea that Scientology does no charity work. You seem to limit your arguement to that point alone, and use it to defend the idea that Scientology should not get tax recognition because there is already fair exchange between the Church and the parishoner. In that case...are you out of your mind?
It is questionable whether any church in the world channels as much of its resources into charitable causes than the Church of Scientology. The LAREGEST corps of volunteer workers in the entire world, with over 100,000 members is Scientology's Volunteer Ministers. These VMs use their own funds to go to virtually every major disaster area in the world to help with relief. Both logisitical, personal and spiritual.
The Youth for Human Rights International campaign is funded exclusively by the Church of Scientology. This is a huge international campaign for which the Church receives no financial exchange. The 80 million plus Way to Happiness booklets which have been distributed have largely been funded by the Church of Scientology desipte the fact that individuals can purchase their own books for distribution.
The Psychiatry Industry of Death museum and traveling exhibits are funded 100% by the Church of Scientology. Hundreds of tutor centers exist which are funded by donations from Scientologists.
The largest and most successful residential drug treatment program in the entire world - NARCANON - is funded by donations from Scientologists until funding is approved at city, state or federal levels. Take the New York City detox program for 9/11 workers. Tom Cruise personally funded it and then others came on board.
You only consider the one-on-one relationsihp between a parishoner and the Church in the donation the parishoner makes for his personal services. But you TOTALLLY disregard the fact that Scientologists probably donate MORE to the strictly charitable causes of the Church than they do for personal services like auditing or training.
Never mind the fact that the donations made for personal services go to pay the staff of the Church (NOT a lot of money if you ask any staff member), pay for the premises, and THEN fund the charitable causes of the Church and fund the opening of new Churces. Do you think the IRS, of all people, would have given the Church tax-exempt status without making sure of this?
I guess you feel that your personal opinion is a more learned one on the subject of tax eligibility than the tax officials of the Unites States or the European Union. Dozens upon dozens of the world's largest countries have recognized the Church is a religous organization and therefore deserving of religous tax status.
The few radicals in the German government rallying against Scientology are just that...a FEW. A few poor souls still following the ideals of their WW II opinion leader. Those few do not speak for Germany. Just as they claim Hitler did not speak for all of Germany.
The German constitution guarantees freedom of religion. They won't win. Tom Cruise and anybody else for that matter, has the right to believe in their own chosen religion and practice it. Anyone cutting across that should be labelled as a human rights abuser, as they would be.
The Volunteer Ministers have been kicked out of the World Trade Center
site and have been recently caught selling scientology books in Africa.
The Psychiatry Industry of Death does'nt sound like a charity to me, just
an attempt to badmouth your competition.
Narconon will never be accepted by any city,state,or federal entity. It's
based on the pseudoscience of L Ron Hubbard, a college dropout, and it
treats drug addictions with niacin,saunas and cooking oil. It's more
of a gateway to scientology than anything else. Here's what Everett Koop,
former Surgeon General of the US said,
'My recommendation about detoxification is to keep away from it. You don't need it. I'm not sure it does what this book describes. It's dangerous. I don't think L. Ron Hubbard has credibility in the scientific world. The author's suggestions about detoxification can be detrimental to your health.'
People should have religious freedom in Germany, but scientology is a business, not a religion, so there would'nt be anything wrong with banning it.
Dear Aaron,
To keep things simple, I only covered the subject of government recognition and church/charity/business aspects of tax benefits. Talking about the validity of the subject itself was not my intention.
You mention a number of things as examples of Church of Scientology's charities. You have been misinformed about them, unfortunately.
Volunteer Ministers. As is typical with the church, they count fantastic numbers, but the reality falls very short. Note this well, because you said it yourself. The Church of Scientology does not and will not pay these VMs to go to and stay at disaster sites, they must pay everything themselves or beg friends for funds. This is not a Church of Scientology charity because, as you said, it doesn't pay for it.
When it does pay for VMs to show up somewhere, it is with the tent and a load of books to sell.
Sorry, not a charity.
Anything related to Human Rights funded by the Church of Scientology is there to attempt to counteract the many accusations of human rights abuses by the church itself. SP declares, RPF pseudo-prison camps, forced abortions, forced divorces, ... the list is large and worth a completely separate post. This isn't charity, it's defensive PR.
Sorry, not a charity.
The Psychiatry Museum? This is part of the strange Scientology war on Psychiatry and is primarily a fund-raising operation. Been there? Had to visit the 'reg' at the end of the tour?
Sorry, not a charity.
Narconon? Skipping the question of whether this is workable or not, you DO realize this is a paid for service don't you? You mention the NY Detox program but even you make it clear that the Church of Scientology did not pay for it!
Sorry, not a charity.
The argument that the Church of Scientology should be given tax breaks EVERYWHERE simply because it has been given tax breaks somewhere is bogus. Remember your mother saying something about 'would you jump of a cliff just because someone else did it?' Or 'two wrongs don't make a right'?
So the IRS recognized the Church of Scientology. So? It's STILL a business and not a church. The recognition didn't magically change the way the Church of Scientology operates. It still operates strictly and only like a business. And, yes, it does not deserve a tax break in the US either. We, as a community, do NOT owe the Church of Scientology anything.
The article says Tom Cruise is reportedly 'bitterly disappointed' because he worked hard to charm Germany into tolerating Scientology. Who says this? The article says 'Hollywood reporter Janet Charlton' says this, but doesn't say WHERE Charlton said it, and doesn't say how she knows Cruise said what he is alleged to have said. To say 'Charlton says Cruise said X' without being more specific (like, you know, actually providing the actual alleged quote from Cruise in full?) smells like just another gossip-rag lie to me.
And, of course, the handful of religion-bashers have to show up and stick their own disinformation and lies in for good measure, following every biased-against-Scientology news squib online like children chasing the ice cream man's truck. Do yourselves a favor, haters, and make a new year's resolution to GET A LIFE in 2008, okay?
Cyrus
I have to agree with you,Tom Cruise should be able to practice whatever religion he wants to,and yes, so should everyone else,but not at the expense of other peoples 'Right to choose what they want to practice'.
What about the 'Human Rights' of children who were Disconnected from 'Their' family because L.Ron Hubbard and his Sea Org elite decided it was the way it had to be,because that was a Scientology rule.Please tell me Cyrus,i would like to Know?
How can any one justify throwing a parent out of an organized 'religion' but keeping the young child,and then 'handling them' to make sure the said child never told anyone out of fear,when they finally got away?
I do not call that religion,i call it a totalitarian regime.
Dear Stable Terminal,
'handful of religion-bashers have to show up and stick their own disinformation and lies in'
You have everything all packaged up in neat little packages. The Church of Scientology is GOOD, and all opponents are EVIL. In fact, the church is PERFECT and everyone else is part of a vast, world-wide evil conspiracy.
So neat. So tidy. You're safe now in a perfect world.
What if, just what if, it wasn't quite that simple. What if the church wasn't QUITE so perfect. What if all the rest of the world actually had a legitimate beef against the church? What if?
Ohhh! That's too hard to imagine.
What about this? Some of us think much of the Scientology technology is fine. Some of us have had actual improvement due to some of what Scientology delivers, BUT we know that the Church of Scientology has been and continues to this day to commit rather serious crimes. There are those of us who are PRO-Scientology but very much ANTI-Church of Scientology.
Hmmm? Still to hard to imagine?
Ah well, relax, go back to your safe little locked-down world of GOOD and EVIL. Remember, for you 2008 will be another year of 'don't look, don't listen'. Now go back to sleep.
There are those of us who are PRO-Scientology but very much ANTI-Church of Scientology.
Personally i fail to see a difference!
Yes Hubbard stole from other authors works and Yes Scientology was a word before Hubbard used the term,but quite frankly Anything to do with Scientology from my point of view,and that includes the so called 'TECH' is at best(for the so called 'church') a way of making a lot of money and at its' worst it does NOT rid the body of BTs.Because guess what we don't have them in the first place.Even if we did,LRH could not get rid of them himself,so how would anyone else manage to get rid of them? Hmmm!
Church or not, the hidden, twisted principles of totalitarian control in Scientology social psychology is inconsistent with ANY democracy.
If you don't put an end to their coercive counselling, forced labor, internment camps (even for CHILDREN), espionage, threats both legal and terroristic, and a list of other evils, then you deserve a rowdy 'Heil Hubbard!' later in the century.
Germany has every reason to be afraid of a Fourth Reich. In Scientology, THEY are the master race ('Homo Scientologicus'), and the rest of us ('wogs') are all the undesirables that will either see thier light or lose our rights.
To quote one of their German leaders, all they want is to create 'a world in which all honest people have rights'. What they don't tell you is that they do not consider anyone not in total agreement with and in submission to their leadership 'honest' - remember, according to strict thought-policed policy, 'All our critics are criminals.'
Perhaps this is familiar to people who remember or study 1930s German history?
And if you doubt that ANY of the criticisms above are truthful or accurate, you are either unaware of the mountain of journalism, court documents and testimonials out there, or sadly you may be unable to even rationally consider them because you are already unquestioning, having your free will totally suppressed under the guise of 'total freedom' ...
Rosemary,
Well, yes. There are some of us who think the whole thing is bollocks, but I was addressing Stable Terminal's concept that attacking the Church of Scientology meant one was anti-religious.
There really are folks who think Hubbard was wonderful and the 'tech' very workable but who fight the Church of Scientology as a criminal organization.
I don't count myself in that group, but that sort of thing does make it clear that fighting the Church of Scientology has little to do with anti-religion or even anti-Hubbard.
But you can't tell that to the true believers of the church. They actually believe that ONLY evil people are against the Church of Scientology and (they really believe this completely) that anyone who is against the Church of Scientology always has 'other crimes', perversions and so on. This is why the speak to and of their detractors the way they do.
It makes them quite unable to think or observe. In Scientology-speak, it's their 'held down 7'. Um, well, one of many.
Riddick,
Well said. Anyone who wants to know what kind of world the Church of Scientology would create can just look to their Int. Base. Away from prying eyes, they create their perfect world.
20 hour days, prison-like conditions, razor wire fences, spy cameras everywhere, beatings, no vacations, no contact allowed with friends or family, censoring mail, monitoring phone calls, a prison-within-the-prison, forced divorces, forced abortions, no radio, no tv, no newspapers, no cell phones, the list goes on.
This is the Scientology World. Germany is right to be very concerned.
But you can't tell that to the true believers of the church. They actually believe that ONLY evil people are against the Church of Scientology and (they really believe this completely) that anyone who is against the Church of Scientology always has 'other crimes', perversions and so on. This is why the speak to and of their detractors the way they do.
Well i am against the Church of Scientology and with very good reason.Yes families split up out in the real world,but its not forced upon them by third parties(ie;Scientology)As a child i had committed no crime.
As a teenager i have a drug conviction,a small amount of cannibis,does that make me a criminal,i think not.
Strangely enough,there are quite alot of Scientologists that were ex drug users,i know of a few personally.
So if the Church of Scientology want to think i'm evil,they can think what they like.On the other hand 'I know them to be evil,I was there.'
Response to Pat.
You sound like a good person and a good Scientologist. I can understand your upset and confusion.
You have seen the good in Scientology and little, if any, of the bad of the Church of Scientology. Your defense of Scientology is honest and sincere.
There is a basic confusion here. I've seen it before, many times. Both sides of the debate have the same confusion.
The subject of Scientology is quite different from the Church of Scientology. It is possible for people to have good things happen from Scientology. However, you are completely unaware of the things that the Church of Scientology is doing - in your name. You are not allowed to read the court cases, read the depositions, read the stories of people who have been damaged by the Church of Scientology. You are not allowed to see these things, and even if you did, you would not be allowed to believe them.
Actually, I don't expect to change your mind on this. I will say that I am sorry for you because all these things will finally become undeniable to good folks like you. Some day you will know things you'd rather not know about the people running the Church of Scientology. I've gone through that, and it's very painful. You have my sympathy when the time comes.
Love your work Peter Simple.
When something becomes a dogma. It is dangerous. Ask the germans !
What worries me most is I never actually see any hard evidence regarding what the Church says: just a front man with some side information with a tenuous link to the subject, that is used to suggest or hint at some conspiracy.
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Brazil soccer fanDec 26th, 2007 - 17:18:18
I saw Tom Cruise in person once at a car show.
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