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Jun 6, 2008, 5:33 GMT
Obama and Clinton meet in Washington DC (Roundup)
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Older Talkback
“I think he is making promises he cannot possibly deliver on and knows it.”
Who will stop him?
“He has been in the Senate long enough to know better.”
He hasn’t been in the senate long enough to know anything. Look at his record, he has missed most of his votes. Just kike when he was a state senator.
“We would not otherwise have a free country. We have a system of checks and balances, remember?”
Yes, the legislative branch is supposed to be a check on the executive. The democrats will have both if Obama is elected. They will have a sizable majority in the legislative. Not having obama IS the only check and balance we will have for at least the next 4 years.
“Compromises will be reached and some of those treaties do indeed need to be modified, or better enforced.”
You can’t just unilaterally abrogate specific terms on something like NAFTA. The Canadians have rightfully said that if we were not going to live up to our word (remember that funny joke? Our word? Does that mean anything any more? Not in the face of hope ‘n change) then the whole thing was open for re-negotiation. When it was negotiated it was at $11 a bbl, now it is at $130 and rising. Where do you think we get most of our oil? That is just an example. The clear point is that you have someone who is dangerously naive and who has complete disdain for American sovereignty who is going to be making these compromises.
“I'm guessing you meant '80% of the world's oil supply in to...'.”
Yes.
“having made that guess, I still am not certain of what you were driving at.”
80+% of the crude oil used in the world today goes in and out of the Strait of Hormuz that connects the Gulf of Oman to the Arabian gulf. The Iranians have repeatedly threatened and tried to close it off. They have mined it.
1) If we turn over Iraq too soon it will become stage for a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran. The sunnis and the shiites will be at each others throats over who gets control over the oil and it’s wealth. It doesn’t matter who wins, either side will set up a failed, terrorist friendly state in the geographic center of the middle east. Look up Mackinder's heartland theory and read about the concept of pivot points. Iraq is the hub of the middle east. If it is a successful democracy then stability will spread, if it is a failed terrorist state, then islamist terrorism will spread. It is that simple and that obvious.
2) If our allies in the region see that we cravenly run from wars that we started there will be no incentive to help us do anything. If we are a country that can not be believed then you will see the gulf states stop cooperating with issues like terrorism and trade. Want to see the dollar take a bigger hit? Watch what happens when they start trading oil in other currencies.
3) If Iran is allowed to acquire an atomic bomb they can make good their threat to close the Strait of Hormuz. They will too. They will also probably make good on their threat to wipe out Israel.
For all these reasons and more, not even considering what will happen to the Iraqis, we can not abandon Iraq before it is ready to stand on it’s own 2 feet. Even just one more presidential ought to do it.
“Worse, John McCain has bought into the Democrat's approach to solving this problem.”
Not really. I do not support the cap and trade nonsense, but he also supports allowing states to decide whether or not they can drill off shore. He supports nuclear power and he has PROMISED not to get caught up in an international agreement like Kyoto unless China, India and Brazil also get on board.
“Not wanting to offend his Democrat buddies, he hides behind his 'federalism' when it comes to our tapping our own resources.“
A reoccurring theme in your whines about McCain is that he doesn’t deliberately offend democrats just for the sake of offending them. Maybe he isn’t stupid…
“If so, then he is exercising some rather poor judgment because this is a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY”
For the Zillionth time, your choice is between someone who is going to give you some of what you want, someone who will listen to what you have to say and someone who doesn’t give a rats ass about National Security.
“I think that he may actually sympathize with them, as do a great many others in the Democrat Leadership. If I'm right, it will be hard for him to hide this flaw once elected.”
I hope it’s your friends and loved ones this time then.
“I think that once this proclivity is exposed, it will have some rather large ramifications for both Republicans and Democrats.”
If 9/11 didn’t get peoples heads right, and it didn’t obviously, you are going to have to reconcile yourself that a large segment of the population is simply oblivious and will be until something unimaginably horrible happens. You seem to have joined them, indeed, they are just clueless; You are something worse.
“Jimmy Carter tried to do this and look what happened to him.”
When Jimmy carter was elected we weren’t in the middle of a 2 front war against an enemy committed to murdering as many civilians as possible. We didn’t have a debt that was 60% of gdp. Indeed, the USA was at arguably the height of the dynastic cycle.
“I mean, we were all SO impressed with the way he dealt with the Iranians, weren't we?”
At this critical juncture we do not have the luxury of electing someone as incompetent or as morally cowardly as Carter or Obama. Obama is actually worse then Carter by leaps and bounds. He can talk his way out of anything. Carter just looked hapless. Obama will have the failures pinned on the usual suspects.
“Unfortunately, the Republicans we elected were poorly led and little inspired by President Bush.”
They were like pigs at the trough. They have made an undeniable mess. There is simply no excuse for the waste over the past 7 years. One of the few that stood against it was McCain which is why they hate his guts. Poorly lead? Perhaps. But the precise truth is that THEY screwed up. Again, McCain was one of the only ones shouting about the disgusting waste of money that is only going to get exponentially worse under Obama.
“On another note, we will NOT be able to remain a superpower if we do not find a way to answer our energy requirements that minimizes our reliance on crude oil”
The obvious issue is how you go about doing it. The Khmer Rouge fixed their crude oil energy requirements in a few weeks by blowing up anything that ran on internal combustion. In the mean time, what then? Price controls? Nationalize the oil companies? Rationing?
“This blythely assumes that a President McCain would have the legislative support he needs to actually win in Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea and, quite possibly, Iran.”
All he needs is enough to be able to stop a veto override for Iraq and Afghanistan. North Korea and Iran will have to simmer a bit more.
Regardless, for the Zillionth time, you have a choice between someone who will confront/engage and someone who will capitulate/appease. (yet you know this)
“I think that the Democrats will milk everything they can from John McCain and then still hold us short of a victory. They really are that rotten.”
Yet you are going to vote for the most rotten one.
“They will engineer a failure with John McCain as president and do so in a way that makes their perfidy appear to be his responsibility.”
At this point the heavy lifting is done in Iraq and Afghanistan still has support. We simply cannot afford to lose either.
“I think that it would infuriate the American people so badly that there would be no place for the bastards to hide.”
At what cost? The death of the USA? Look, I won’t be here, I live in the red part of the bulls eye but I do not appreciate the woman and children that I see every day being so “blithely“ sacrificed in your bazaaro-world scenario of allowing Americans to be murdered in order to properly “motivate” the survivors.
“As for the destruction of our financial infrastructure, I do believe that our financial wizards understand the need for off-site backups.”
Again, Americans being killed by the thousands or hundreds of thousands or quite possibly the millions as has been speculated by detonating a 1040’s era atom bomb in midtown Manhattan will probably not produce the results that you are wishing for. But thanks for your well wishes.
“I have said that I would RISK the destruction of this country by Barak Obama,”…
Pretty stupid, self-centered, self-defeating, un-epenthetic and mentally unbalanced of you.
“How could they fail to leave a 'return address?'”
Load it in a truck, drive it in, set it off. Where did it come from? AQ Kahn? North Korea? Iran? Russia? They all deny it. Your isotope tests are Jack Bower-esque fantasy.
“Leave us to say that I do not share your pessimism.”
Well you haven’t read any polling data then.
“The numbers I have in front of me suggest that Congress is already in for a bloodbath.”
Take a look at the number of weak seats held by the GOP and by the democrats.
“A President Obama backed by a compliant Democrat led Congress will begin to self destruct during the first one hundred days of his administration.”
You underestimate the degree to which the willing can be had. You see it here every day. These people do not want to be bothered with inconvenient facts, they WILL believe what they want to believe and that is whatever makes them feel better about themselves. Obama is the most gifted salesman/messiah of BS I have ever seen. All of that adds up to enough time to sink the ship to where it can’t be floated again.
“You overlooked that fact that Harry Reid was the one who insisted on a cloture vote on Friday.”
Because he KNEW IT COULDN”T WITHSTAND THE VETO. He did that to save the bill for another day when they have a better shot at getting it passed. The only thing a cloture vote does is temporarily stop debate. This thing isn’t dead yet.
“He was pressured to do so by Democrats.”
WHO KNEW IT COULDN’T WITHSTAND THE VETO. Reid is saving it for another day when he knows the thing can be pushed through.
Here, the list of people for:
Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Collins (R-ME)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dole (R-NC)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kerry (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kohl (D-WI)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (ID-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Sununu (R-NH)
Tester (D-MT)
Warner (R-VA)
Webb (D-VA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)
7 Republicans 2 independents.
The list of people against:
Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Barrasso (R-WY)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brown (D-OH)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burr (R-NC)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Corker (R-TN)
Crapo (R-ID)
Domenici (R-NM)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Grassley (R-IA)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lugar (R-IN)
McConnell (R-KY)
Roberts (R-KS)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Wicker (R-MS)
4 democrats…
“Those Democrats voted WITH the Republicans or that bill would still be on the floor of the Senate.”
The numbers prove you wrong.
“Remember how quickly we rebounded from that madness after Reagen was elected?”
Pinning your hopes on that is so far fetched that it is ludicrous. Obama is not as pathetically un-slick as Carter and the country is not the same as it was in 1979.
“I want to encourage the Democrats in their folly, yes.”
Some of are trying to have a life in this country that you want to drag down.
“One of the things I want the most is to discredit the radical left that drives the Democrats to such unforgivable excess.”
Isn’t deliberately losing 2 wars and destroying the economic prosperity of the country going a bit far to make Michael Moore look like a bigger turd?
“Below that I want the Democrats out of power for twenty years.”
So of course your brilliant plan is to vote them in to office…
“I have children and grandchildren. Their future is one of the things that worries me the most.”
Well you ought to be ashamed of yourself. You are condemning them to live in a country whose word means nothing.
“So anyone who votes for a Democrat, Barack Obama in this case, is a lousy American?”
Anyone who votes for someone because they recognize that they will drive the country in to the ground is a lousy American. Anyone who is reasoned enough to see the calamity and who takes steps to see that it happens is a lousy American.
“What if they vote for Jim Webb?”
Lol… It depends on what is motivating them. If they believe that he will do a great job because they do not know the first thing about him then no, not a “lousy American”. If they are voting for him because they KNOW that he is an abusive, swaggering, boorish ape who gets off on making other peoples lives miserable and they WANT him to drive the country in to the ground, then YES, they are a “lousy American”.
“What about the guy who caucuses with Republicans, but supports Democrat ideology”
He doesn’t.
“and thinks of Hillary Clinton as a source of inspiration?”
Personally I admire her drive and stamina. Like her or not, she is as tough as a keg of nails, and almost as cuddly. I do not have to endorse what she is in order to respect attributes of her personality.
“'As the father of three daughters, I owe her a debt for inspiring millions of women to believe there is no opportunity in this great country beyond their reach.'”
And that somehow makes him a traitor to individualism no doubt? Or to the Republicans?
“Why did he feel compelled to talk about Hillary Clinton this way?”
Because Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Susan Palin, Jean Kirkpatrick and Margret Thatcher were not competing against him for the office of President. He was trying to be gracious and maybe pick up a few votes. Should he have pulled out a tazer and given the hag a few thousand volts? Is that how you would have handles the situation?
“No, I see myself as a hardcore American. An American who recognizes political and intellectual poisons for what they are.”
You are simply floating in your own rationalizations.
“I especially dislike it when fiat currency is used to encourage people to go heavily in debt and fail to save money.”
What happened to individual responsibility?
“Why would I go to this extreme if were anything less?”
I think your rationality has been usurped by your ego.
“I have gotten far more arguments from posters on this board over BAO38 than over the missile defense shield”
You picked up a troll, that is what happens when you have a fixed user name.
“Where were you? If you disagreed, why is it that you and I haven't had a serious debate over it?”
Choosing my battles, only 24 hrs in a day. Soon I will have almost no time for this.
“yes, I do intend to vote for Senator Obama and I expect him to be rather less successful than Jimmy Carter was.”
Gee, idiot, voting for someone because you believe they will make a mess makes you a lousy American.
“As bad as it will be, that will be considerably better than the disaster we suffered under Richard Nixon.”
I don’t.
“have encouraged you to speak up a bit more than you might otherwise have done.”
I was so shy before.
“I am obliged by duty to continue annoying you.”
You will be annoying others soon as I will be on a project. I hope you will reconsider the stupid idea of deliberately damaging the country on the off chance that the disgust that it produces will somehow get you your way.
“Oh, I think you will figure it out eventually. You are a good deal brighter than most.”
Wrongheaded yet patronizing… Yup, an obama supporter.
“I want to cripple the Democrat Party. I would destroy it if I could.”
So the obvious choice is to vote for it… Not get out and work to defeat it or anything. Sort of like defeating the Nazis by joining the SS. It makes perfect sense!
“Nicely done, but do you think we will be ready to tackle Iran by the time these elections are over?”
I hope it doesn’t come to that. Appease the monsters and it will.
“And yet you cling to social security.”
On the most basic level, it is not only correct to help people who can’t help themselves it is also enlightened self interest.
“I think he will serve our needs better than Senator McCain can.”
I do not need the country destroyed in order to save it. What I do need is to get my tired ass out and fight the good fight until election day. If Obama wins (and you just might get your wish) he will be my president as well and I will support him as best as I can because I believe in democracy, the constitution and the USA.
“It is necessary to explain why.”
I have been. You are not going to hear it though.
'Simple - don't waste time debating McCain's merits or not - vote for Obama.'
The 'reasoning' behind most of the 'decisions' to vote for Obama...
Voting for 'chipmonk cheeks' is not going to do this country any good unless we want more Bush years!
Yo, Bubba!
I'm answering your questions under USA/In Photos: Hillary Clinton suspends her campaign'.
This article is about to scroll out of sight and is going to be hard to find.
By the way, I am saving both our posts. Let me know if you need a copy.
'By the way, I am saving both our posts. Let me know if you need a copy.'
Are you kidding?
'Voting for 'chipmonk cheeks' is not going to do this country any good unless we want more Bush years!'
You regurgitate your programing well Diana....
First of all, you need to learn to read. And second of all, if someone thinks differently than you, they are an idiot? That makes tens of thousands of idiots then.
'First of all, you need to learn to read. '
If I didn't know how to read how would I have been able to determine that you are an idiot? I can't see how dumb you look from here.
'And second of all, if someone thinks differently than you, they are an idiot?'
ABSOLUTELY.
'That makes tens of thousands of idiots then.'
Indeed it does.
It wasn't Diana, you simpleton, it was Dina. You can't even read a simple statement. And I'm not surprised you hold youself so far above the tens of thousands. Obama and Clinton did the only intelligent thing by holding a meeting and deciding to work together. I don't feel it's necessary to call people names who are voting for McCain, when you can certainly state reasons, and I feel like it would just be voting for another Bush and his war mongering. That doesn't mean I think the voters are stupid, idiots, f-ing idiots or whatever. Maybe you need to go to your happy place!
'It wasn't Diana, you simpleton, it was Dina. '
Oh well...
'. You can't even read a simple statement. '
'chipmonk[sic] cheeks' is a statement from a simpleton. If I were to say that you shouldn't vote for obama because he has clownishly large ears would that be as valid as saying that he is a dangerous incompetent that plans to lose us 2 wars to the islamists who attacked us and destroy our economy with entitlement programs that we can't afford?
'I'm not surprised you hold youself[sic] so far above the tens of thousands. '
It is a needy, fundamentally insecure mind that seeks to justify your decision by the fact that other people have made it. The fact that someone else has come to your same conclusion doesn't make your conclusion more valid... Is popularity the measure of accuracy or truth?
'and I feel like it would just be voting for another Bush and his war mongering'
Why don't you think instead of feel?
' That doesn't mean I think the voters are stupid, idiots, f-ing idiots or whatever.'
Could I ever persuade you with logic and reasoned arguments that you were wrong? Seriously? Could I, with pictures and pie charts and footnoted texts persuade you that your 'feelings' on the subject are not as valid as your 'thoughts' should be? Could I ever persuade you that some things are worth fighting for and that this country is one of them? That is not a popular idea so probably not.
'Maybe you need to go to your happy place!'
Dina, ignoring what is going on is not going to make me happy for very long.
you are totally unbelievable! Actually I didn't say 'Chipmunk Cheeks' McCain - you are being presumptuous! Regardless, I think/feel that is pretty mild compared to the completely vile words that have been used in relation to Obama. As for going along with something because of a majority is not what I inferred. You need to get your 'teacher's' mentality wrapped around the subject at hand. I think/feel that Obama and Clinton are on the right track in meeting and wanting to unite for the better of the party, and I strongly hope that they accomplish this, and Obama is voted in as the next President. I don't think/feel he is out to ruin this country. However, the voters should have been well aware that this might happen before voting for Bush because of his obvious 'dumb guy' persona. Although that is probably no doubt what the 'players' wanted - someone to control!! -
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