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Feb 20, 2008, 8:17 GMT
Obama, McCain declared winners in primaries (2nd Roundup)
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Older Talkback
...dems still hate Hillary. Welcome to the club!
blathers on and on. Smoke another one and pass out, you idiot.
Ironic... a leftist that has a problem with smoking pot.
RE:'AUDIENCE: (Glassy eyed and drooling) 'Yes, we can! Yes, we can! Yes, we can!'
Which matters more, a football game or an election?
RE:'Guess they are too young to remember Pol Pot.'
Damned few people remember anything about Pol Pot because our beloved 'news' media said as little as possible about him and what he was doing.
RE:'And no, there is no substance here In Obamas speech...'
Well, let's see. There is an enormous amount of substance in this speech, but it is not delivered in a dry manner. His substantive statements are dolled up rumbling oratory that simply flows into the room, and his entire performance is packaged in wonderfully crafted ruffles and flourishes. Neither the Clintons nor Senator McCain can deliver their messages this way, so they are both at a disadvantage. To compound their problems, they mistake Senator Obama's eloquence for a lack of substance and make repeated efforts to belittle his skilled oratory. This is a horrible mistake for them. His magnificent oratory is what people like the most about Senator Obama. Making fun of his eloquence backfires immediately. If you don't believe me, take a look at the Clintons' declining position in the polls.
Quoting Senator Obabama's speech:
'Look at his short record in the senate rather then his pretty yet vague words... Senator Obama is the most liberal person in the Senate in 2007, according to National Journal -- Left of Teddy Kennedy. The most extreme in the party. Is this an extreme liberal country? Is 'extreme anything' a reasoned and mature way of looking at the world?'
Quoting a famous Republican; 'Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.'
RE:'Obama is downright dangerous to the United States.'
And there is no chance that the generally bellicose Senator McCain could ever be? Or that the inconstant or totally self-involved Clintons are not? Give it rest.
The real danger here, all ready demonstrated by the Clintons' electoral failure, is that Senator McCain will misread and therefore employ the wrong tactics against Senator Obama. As I am writing this, the McCain campaign is repeating the Billary's mistakes. What could possibly be sillier and what could more clearly demonstrate the incompetence of a candidate and his supporting staff? If they cannot see the real threat here, then they do not deserve jobs in the Whitehouse.
I'm looking forward to their debates. Let the chips fall where they will.
LOL!Feb 20th, 2008 - 19:54:02
Ironic... a leftist that has a problem with smoking pot.
SPdug addict running under yet another nom-de-web. I'm nay leftist, laddie. I'm anti-dope. And you are a fricking dope.
A.K.A. old c--k breath..
I'll tell you when it's me.
It still amazes me how many dems hate Hillary! Jesus! Who knew?
'SP4: Listen up, Bitch...Feb 20th, 2008 - 21:23:18
I'll tell you when it's me.'
Nice language, druggie. Do you eat with that mouth? Oops, I forgot, you don't know which orifice is used for eating. Smoke another one, just like the other one. You've got two brain cells that aren't addled, yet.
'Which matters more, a football game or an election? '
It depends on the game and the election. I am not too big on either contest being decided by the cheerleaders.
'Damned few people remember anything about Pol Pot because our beloved 'news' media said as little as possible about him and what he was doing.'
Indeed, it's too bad the media isn't doing their job again and creating this little darling out of verbose oratories and hot air.
'There is an enormous amount of substance in this speech,'
Such as? Seriously. Lots of vague promises and lofty words do not add up to substance. We are coming up on a 10 TRILLION dollar national debt yet we have ambiguous allusions to unworkable concepts that are going to bankrupt us in a very big way.
'His [edited for accuracy] statements are dolled up rumbling oratory that simply flows into the room, and his entire performance is packaged in wonderfully crafted ruffles and flourishes'
So were Hitlers.
'To compound their problems, they mistake Senator Obama's eloquence for a lack of substance and make repeated efforts to belittle his skilled oratory'
I haven't heard anyone belittle his skills as an orator, I think they are outstanding. There is a huge gulf between being a gifted orator who can pass himself as a warm and cuddly ink-blot test and a recognition that what he is spouting are vague platitudes that are carefully crafted not to inform but to 'inspire'. So what does that leave you? Inspired idiots joining a cult of personality whose only real policy is 'hope and change, change and hope.'
I fear that nothing else is going to matter to these inspired zombies and little else has been offered. (Other then surrendering in Iraq now that there is irrefutable proof that we can salvage the mission and a health care plan that simply will not work.) (Oh, almost forgot, lobbyists = bad.)
' His magnificent oratory is what people like the most about Senator Obama. '
Sure, oratory over resume, glitz over reality...
'Making fun of his eloquence backfires immediately.'
How about making fun of the drooling dupes who hop on this bandwagon, can I do that?
''Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.''
You will note that it didn't get Barry elected. Regardless, Obamas extremism is not in the defense of 'liberty' it is in the defense of a particular ideology that as YOU in particular here might have noted doesn't have anything to do with 'liberty'. The most intolerant people I have EVER come across regard themselves as 'liberals'. Take a look at what has been posted even on this thread. These people demonstrate that it is not about 'liberty' it is about control and they do it constantly.
'And there is no chance that the generally bellicose Senator McCain could ever be? '
'Generally bellicose Johnny' will be offset by a congress that will gridlock him however they can.
'Or that the inconstant or totally self-involved Clintons are not? '
The Clintons and Obama would have no checks and balances to slow them down for at least 2 years. Say whatever you wish about the Clintons, they didn't spend the way Obama is poised to.
'The real danger here, all ready demonstrated by the Clintons' electoral failure, is that Senator McCain will misread and therefore employ the wrong tactics against Senator Obama.'
Perhaps. I quite frankly haven't figured out to persuade people who have decided that they are going to believe something regardless of whatever pesky facts are presented to them. The 'real danger here' is that you can't argue with crazy people. Be they religious nuts, suicide bombers or those who have been 'saved' by the cult of change-hope-change.
Congratulations stalker, you did the impossible: You made SP4 cool!
He isn't cool. He's growing drugs. He is in possession of drugs. These are federal offences. He is not cool, he's a criminal. Hang him. He should be dismantling his grow-show before the DEA come knocking(any second now).
And you are an idiotic turd from a long line of runny sh*ts.
Re:'It depends on the game and the election. I am not too big on either contest being decided by the cheerleaders.'
My point is that the behavior you are seeing is little different from that exhibited by fans at a football game and elections are ALWAYS decided by us fans.
RE:'Such as? Seriously. Lots of vague promises and lofty words do not add up to substance. We are coming up on a 10 TRILLION dollar national debt yet we have ambiguous allusions to unworkable concepts that are going to bankrupt us in a very big way.'
And your point is? The speech is substantive precisely because it reveals these things that you do not like. I am going to cut the thing up major point by major point because there is a lot of it that I do not agree with, but I am here to tell you that attacking Obama's voters or attacking his oratorical skills is a hideously dangerous mistake. Doing that will literally hand the White House to him. It is necessary to criticize his arguments, not him or his fans. I slash on his speech in a series of separate posts.
RE:'So were Hitlers.'
Absolutely true! It is a talent of a great many successful politicians, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, for instance. Roosevelt was a long way from being an opposite of Hitler. He and Hitler shared a great many characteristics in common.
RE:'I haven't heard anyone belittle his skills as an orator, I think they are outstanding. There is a huge gulf between being a gifted orator who can pass himself as a warm and cuddly ink-blot test and a recognition that what he is spouting are vague platitudes that are carefully crafted not to inform but to 'inspire'. So what does that leave you? Inspired idiots joining a cult of personality whose only real policy is 'hope and change, change and hope.'
You just now in the paragraph above, belittled his oratorical skill by declaring devoid of content and you belittled his voters. His speeches were NOT empty and his voters are not necessarily idiots. They are as sincere in their beliefs in his ideology as he is. Sure, it's 'Big Rock CAndy Mountain' all over again, but people still read horoscopes, too.
RE:'(Other then surrendering in Iraq now that there is irrefutable proof that we can salvage the mission and a health care plan that simply will not work.) (Oh, almost forgot, lobbyists = bad.)
This list of things you are complaining about are what gives his speech substance. He is giving his position on these issues. He is, in other words handing out ammunition to be used against him. This happens to EVERYONE and ANYONE who makes a substantive argument. There is no need to belittle the man or his voters. There IS great need to refute his arguments and demonstrate the folly of his positions.
RE:'Sure, oratory over resume, glitz over reality...'
He really does mean to do what he says. That is the reality he is conveying to everyone. This man is as sincere as they come. People respond to that kind of sincerity, even when they do not entirely agree with the person's stated goals. He employs the politics of envy better than anyone I have ever seen. I do not like this, but it most certainly IS substantive. The leftists have been beating conservatives to death with this kind of politics for decades. It can be and should be refuted, but name calling will not do the job!
RE:'How about making fun of the drooling dupes who hop on this bandwagon, can I do that?'
Sure, but it will not help your cause one iota. All that ever does is anger your opponents and stiffen his neck. Such tactics are only useful in certain very special circumstances when you know you can cause your opponent to lose his/her temper and make a silly mistake. Doing this now is like walking into a beer joint and shouting, 'Line up or bunch up! I'm a gonna whip every ass in here.' Believe me, they WILL bunch up.
RE:'You will note that it didn't get Barry elected. Regardless, Obamas extremism is not in the defense of 'liberty' it is in the defense of a particular ideology that as YOU in particular here might have noted doesn't have anything to do with 'liberty'.'
Absolutely true, but will John McCain actually step up to the bat and DEFEND LIBERTY at home? I remain unconvinced. I have no clear understanding of his intentions, and have serious doubts about his abilities.
RE:'The most intolerant people I have EVER come across regard themselves as 'liberals'. Take a look at what has been posted even on this thread. These people demonstrate that it is not about 'liberty' it is about control and they do it constantly.'
This mirrors my own experience. I have also noticed that they are the very worst sort of greedy-guts you will ever find. I suspect that they are leftists because they think that everyone is as venal and domineering as they are.
RE:'The Clintons and Obama would have no checks and balances to slow them down for at least 2 years. Say whatever you wish about the Clintons, they didn't spend the way Obama is poised to.'
They would certainly TAX as though they were going to spend that way though, wouldn't they? John McCain is unlikely to have any such checks and balances on domestic matters. Liberty really is in a dangerous situation here.
RE:'Perhaps. I quite frankly haven't figured out to persuade people who have decided that they are going to believe something regardless of whatever pesky facts are presented to them. The 'real danger here' is that you can't argue with crazy people. Be they religious nuts, suicide bombers or those who have been 'saved' by the cult of change-hope-change.'
Then we have nothing to lose by doing the job properly, do we?
anything important? I fell asleep about 1/4 of the way through his monologue.
Quoting the first sentence of Senator Obama's speech.
'Houston, I think we've achieved liftoff here.'
This was a stroke of genius. He started his speech with a sentence that hearkened back to, 'Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has Landed.' Younger people may not remember or even know the thrill that shot up everyone's spine when that crackling voice came in from the moon. Even today it makes chills run up and down my spine.
He used this imagery throughout the entire speech to make it emotive. From this point on, he referred to the audience as 'Houston' and it worked like a champ. It reminded everyone old enough of the times of JFK and the days of the US meeting every challenge thrown at its feet. Ronald Reagen was good at making a crowd feel good about itself as well. Obama has noticed that and he is doing the exact same thing, only I think he may well be doing a better job of inspiring people on an emotional level than Reagan did. I think he secretly admires Reagen for his polish and his leadership skills. He seems to have studied Reagen very closely--along with a large number of other successful leaders as well.
The other thing this accomplishes is that it provides Obama with an extraordinarily effective shield. Anyone foolish enough to mar this sheen is going to be vilified by the majority almost immediately. Anyone wanting to refute Obama's arguments, or wanting to attack his positions, must take care not to mar the wonderfully polished surface of that shield.
It would be a very dangerous thing to underestimate this man or to doubt his leadership skills. He's got 'em in spades and he is intelligent enough to use them well.
his tune, again. Only a short time ago he was slagging Obama with the rest of the neocon dog pack. This guy changes his position more often than a hooker changes 'partners'.
Quoting Senator Obama again:
Here he uses all the tricks known to cookware and encyclopedia salesman. He could probably make as good a living selling pots as he could practicing law. The amazing thing he did here is that he started closing the deal before he started his pitch.
=========================================================
'Now, there's a little bit of business that we've got to do before we get into the main event. Early voting has started here in Texas.
(APPLAUSE)
Early voting has started here in Texas. And so everybody has received one of these cards, and everybody knows that you can start voting today. And if you didn't vote today, you can start tomorrow, or the next day, or the day after that.
But we have early voting in Texas. I don't want you to wait until March 4th. I want you to go ahead and start voting tomorrow here in Texas.
(APPLAUSE)
You've got February 19th until 29th to vote, and you can also vote on election day, March 4th.
Now, I know this was explained to you. This is a little confusing. You're going to have to do two things for me now.
Not only do you have to vote -- and we would prefer you to vote early -- but on election day, March 4th, you're going to have to attend the caucus at 7 p.m. to get us a few more delegates.
(APPLAUSE) Can everybody do that, Houston? Everybody going to do that?
(APPLAUSE)
==========================================================
AUDIENCE: Yes, we can! Yes, we can! Yes, we can!
===========================================================
This is shameless plagiarism. He stole it from Cesar Chavez who wanted the borders closed and illegal immigrants from Mexico and points south deported. However, it is genius from a sales standpoint. Why? Because every good salesmen will tell you that you want your prospect nodding his or her head early on in the presentation. Here, Senator Obama has them CHANTING the word yes.
============================================================
MR. OBAMA: Yes, we can.
And on the back -- on the back here are all the sites for all the early voting locations, so you don't have an excuse for not going. And we want you to grab your cousin, and your uncle, and your niece, and your nephew. Don't go alone. Take some friends and family to the polls.
Now, we just heard that we won tonight in Wisconsin.
(APPLAUSE)
And I am grateful to the people of Wisconsin for their friendship, and their support, and their extraordinary civic pride.
You know, in Wisconsin when you go to vote it's five degrees outside. But that has not deterred people from Milwaukee to Green Bay to Eau Claire, all across that state, from casting their ballot and exercising their civic duty.
(APPLAUSE)
We also have a caucus in Hawaii tonight. It's too early to know how that will turn out. It's too early to know, but we do know this. We do know this, Houston: The change we seek is still months and miles away, and we need the good people of Texas to help us get there.
(APPLAUSE)
We will need you to fight for every delegate it takes to win this nomination. And if we win the nomination, if we are blessed and honored to win the nomination, then we're going to need your help to win the election in November.
(APPLAUSE)
And if we win that election in November, then we are going to need your help and your time, your energy, your enthusiasm, your mobilization, your organization, and your voices to help us change America over the next four years.
(APPLAUSE)
Because understand this, Houston: As wonderful as this gathering is, as exciting as these enormous crowds and this enormous energy may be, what we're trying to do here is not easy, and it will not happen overnight.
It is going to take more than big rallies. It's going to require more than rousing speeches. It will also require more than policy papers and positions and Web sites. It is going to require something more, because the problem that we face in America today is not the lack of good ideas. It's that Washington has become a place where good ideas go to die... '
==================================================
He finishes the sales close with a funny and very acerbic line, even though it ignores the reasoning used to construct our polity, and then moves on to the all important Rah-Rah-Sis-Boom-Bah that will cause his prospects to leave the convention hall excited about him and what he has to sell.
This is genius at work here. John McCain will have to learn to subtly emulate Senator Obama if he wants to win this race.
Quoting Senator Obama:
=======================================================
Here is another old sales trick, make the prospect feel an urgent need for what you are selling.
=======================================================
'I'm not running because I think it's somehow owed to me. I'm running because of what Dr. King called the fierce urgency of now, the fierce urgency of now.
(APPLAUSE)
Because there's such a thing, Houston, as being too late, and that hour is almost upon us. We are at a defining moment in our history. Our nation is at war. Our planet is in peril. The dream that so many generations fought for feels like it's slowly slipping away.
======================================================
Our planet is in peril? In the minds of many this is true. I happen to believe, after long and careful consideration that it IS true, but not because we are dumping too much CO2 into the atmosphere. But what I believe here is not what matters. What matters is that it gives what he is saying an aura of urgency, and importance. WE MUST ACT NOW.
======================================================
You see it in your own lives and in your own neighborhoods. The stories I told you are not unique. Everywhere I go, I hear the same stories. People are working harder for less; they've never paid more for college, never paid more for gas at the pump.
====================================================
This is true as well, mostly because of what most economists regard to be 'mild' inflation. Also, NASA has been something of a flub, hasn't it? There are also our screw ups in Vietnam, Somalia and Iraq to moan about. We were expecting to be cruising down the highway in cars that could handle 120 mph of hours on end and maybe even have really cheap and safe general aviation. Remember all those shiny doohickies we were promised back in the sixties and seventies? How many of them have you seen? What did we really get? Computers and inflation. Both have had profound impacts on our society. The impact of inflation has been wholly negative and the impact of computers has been mixed. Nothing around us seems all that inspiring anymore, does it? Now, along comes Obama! Awright!
He is one of the best salesmen I have ever seen.
smoking pot with SPdruggie? He just prattles on and on and on. Boring. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Quoting Senator Obama:
'Our health care system leaves 47 million people without health insurance.And those who have it are seeing their co-payments and deductibles and premiums going up year after year after year after year.'
========================================================
This is a true statement. He is using it to reinforce the sense of urgency he wants to induce in the minds of his prospects. Here he is using substance to his advantage.
========================================================
'Despite the slogans, our children, millions of them, are being left behind, unable to compete in an international economy. In such circumstances, Houston, we cannot afford to wait. We cannot wait to fix our schools. We cannot wait to fix our health care system. We cannot wait to put an end to global warming. We cannot wait to bring good jobs with good benefits back to the United States. We cannot wait to end this war in Iraq. We cannot wait.'
=======================================================
All true statements. All of it matter of substance. All of it used to incite urgency in his prospective voters. Senator Obama is GOOD at this. Notice, that all of these issues ARE urgent and that arguments over their solutions can rage on for weeks on end.
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