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Feb 16, 2008, 5:38 GMT
PREVIEW: Obama looks to keep edge as Democratic race hits Wisconsin
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Older Talkback
SP4....
'...I certainly don't mind insults, as I am still around. You are welcome to act the fool, via your posts. After all, no one is ppppperfect.'
You don't mind because you are to ignorant to understand that your rants do nothing to help your side, and without any facts (speaking of fools) they make you look like a fool. Fools don't mind anything.
'If, however, you would do us all a favor:
Practice brevity. Certainly, even you can manage to shorten your ignorant prose and stupid insults just a bit?'
I will be shorter in my responses if you will start telling the truth.
'C'mon: be the man, huh?'
Right, I know reading more than 3 paragraphs probably puts your brain on overload.
I will keep this as short as possible as a favor to SP4.
'AAAh yes, it never fails to show itself... The 'ol 'I'm rubber you're glue defense'... Good work, When I say to you:'Not much of a retort' and you counter with the quite imaginative: 'Not much of a retort' you sting me with your rapier wit. I might as well be shouting in a cave to hear my own echo.'---Your feeble attempts to make a valid point are so self defeating you may as well shout in a cave, as the only one that is listening to you is yourself.
'I have made several valid points, you just can't sincerely address them without making yourself uncomfortable.'---and again you have yet to make a 'valid' point---mostly right wing babble.
'By some accounts later but regardless, I thought you said 'Hawaii [is] where he was educated'... Gee, Hawaii and Indonesia are not the same place, are they? Did you 'lie' or are you just uninformed?`'---would those accounts be your right wing smear machine? Do the math 4 in one place 8 in another. Use your toes when you run out of fingers.
''Eeer no, that is not what was posted now is it? When you put quotations around something that was never said, that is a lie... The quote is that 'Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended.' A 'registered Muslim' doesn't make any sense. Registered in his Indonesian school AS a Muslim does. See?''---your smear is to make it appear that he is a Muslim, I like it when you act stupid, makes you look much better than just a liar.
'I thought you said that he didn't? '---I attended a Catholic school for 3 years (as it was the only school in the area I grew up), but I am not a Catholic. Possible don't you think or don't ypu think, just smear?
'You just conceded that you were wrong and that I was telling the truth yet you are still trying to hurt my feelings with such 'hateful' commentary! Could it be that you just 'hate anything that [you do] not agree on'????'---must be great to be a neo-con, always right? I have yet to concede anything to you in this argument. Dream on.
'So al Qaeda doesn't want to attack us? I have seen what they do.'---Where have I said they don't want to attach us? Trying to make up something again? Wow, am I suppose to be impressed with this statement---so have I!
'Back peddle much? The truth of the matter is obvious, bigot.'---Oh my god you really need treatment, show me where I am 'back peddling?
'LOL... Gee, I wonder. (Forgot you said you were from Arizona, eh? you can make up another location later, don't worry.)'---Must be having a flashback? This statement makes no sense?
'Calling someone who was abused in the Hanoi Hilton a traitor is not cute, funny or amusing. Sarcastic or not.'---intimating that somone is a Muslim in order to scare them away from coting for them is not cute, funny or amusing either. Read, not all people who were POW's think John McCain walks on water, should we believe their babble?
'It is the fact! Deny it! :-D'---your attempt to be cute, does not fit you. If being tired of old white men ruining this country makes me a bigot, so be it. I am an old white man bigot. Don't know if I will be able to sleep tonight after that admission.
'You haven't shown that I have lied, indeed you have conceded that I was telling the truth. And 'self loathing'? Come on! How can I be 'arrogant' and 'self loathing' at the same time? (I adore me!)'---Problem is you are telling half truths, most of the time half truths are the biggest lies. Typical for the right-wing hate machine.
'The first step in fixing a problem is to recognize that there is a problem... Some idiotic, parasitic bigots might not even realize that they are idiotic, parasitic bigots. I am just here to give them direction, I am actually here to HELP you idiots and parasites. (and bigots, of course)'---Help, you are a joke! I find it funny that you call ME the king of the name calling crew.
'Once again, you haven't been able to break my argument or even address it in a substantiate way. What are you reduced to? Lame speculation and ad hominem attacks. Don't you know that I am sensitive to such things?'---Your argument does not hold water. You have yet to prove one point in your argument, it is all speculation and half truths. I know in your world that is winning an argument, but not in the real world.
'Gee, I guess I have encountered a few of your sock puppets, eh? You are correct that this a waste of time, I will concede that readily.'---I love wasting the super astronaut's (liar) time.
'The missed part of that was: 'If you had a reasoned argument instead of hysterically calling other people names'... I think you will find that I usually there is a reasoned argument shoehorned in among the name calling. In this case it was: Speaking about Barack Obamas complete lack of qualifications, his dubious past and affiliations is not Bigotry. Voting for him in spite of them because it would be somehow satisfying to have a black president is. Disqualifying qualified candidates because they are white is bigotry. Racism to be precise. You have basically proven my argument for me... That is how I got my crown. :-D'---Your world again. Speculation, half truths, distortion, all part of the right wing smear machine. If you have half the education you claim you would not need to resort to this type of 'argument'. Makes you a liar and a bigot.
'Where have I lied?'---See above, the entire argument.
' as the only one that is listening to you is yourself.'
Evidentially.
'and again you have yet to make a 'valid' point---mostly right wing babble.'
I even gave you the cliffs notes version: 'In this case it was: Speaking about Barack Obamas complete lack of qualifications, his dubious past and affiliations is not Bigotry. Voting for him in spite of them because it would be somehow satisfying to have a black president is. Disqualifying qualified candidates because they are white is bigotry. Racism to be precise.'
It is not nice to call other people bigots when you are being racist. We all should always be nice. Like me.
'--would those accounts be your right wing smear machine?'
Like Wikpedia? It is just the fact, he went to school in Indonesia where his family registered him as a Muslim. It is not a 'smear' if it is truth. Are you afraid of the truth????? :-D
'--your smear is to make it appear that he is a Muslim, '
His family registered him as such. I will however take his word when he says he is now a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ, where they practice 'the black value system'... Would you like a look at that? It is just the fact of the matter, not a smear.
'I like it when you act stupid,'
No one could accuse you of acting. I meant that in a 'nice' way.
'Possible don't you think or don't ypu[sic] think, just smear?'
When I said he attended a school in Indonesia you called me a liar and said he was educated in Hawaii. When I trot out the name of this school he attended you accused me of 'smearing' your saint eer, candidate. When I cite evidence that he was registered by his family as a Muslim, he received religious training there and his sister has stated that they attended Mosque... well, you just don't want to hear that for some reason.
One thing you should know, The penalty that muslims give to those people who LEAVE their faith is death. (Note that is in no way a threat on my part, I am not a Muslim.)
'--must be great to be a neo-con,'
I am not a neocon, just fyi.
'always right? '
It has it's drawbacks.
'I have yet to concede anything to you in this argument.'
Must be great to be a moonbat, always denying the obvious.
'Where have I said they don't want to attach us?'
Well..'The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Fear, fear and more fear, control the masses. Idotic[sic] to say the least.' tells me that you just want to bury your head in the sand and ignore that we are fighting an enemy that is thoroughly despicable, ruthless and committed to our destruction. snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory in Iraq and Afghanistan, (And yes, victory is possible) will just bring them here. These monsters are not joking around and they are not going away. They have been doing this for 1300 years...
'---so have I!'
All the way from Arizona? I live in lower Manhattan and knew people who were incinerated at their desks for being infidels. I have no time for people who want to go easy on the pieces of s**t that did that. You can not appease them, you can not negotiate with them. They need to be tracked down and killed.
'Oh my god you really need treatment, show me where I am 'back peddling? '
Well, calling me a liar (sniff, sniff) for saying that Obama went to school in Indonesia and then admitting that he did but calling me stupid because you don't have the class to admit that I was right and that you were wrong.
'-intimating that somone[sic] is a Muslim in order to scare them away from coting[sic] for them is not cute'
I just gave you the facts. He has said that, despite his ancestry, the fact that his family registered him in school as such and upbringing that he is not a Muslim and I take him at his word as I have said 3 times now.
I fully concede that Barack Obama is a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ and an upholder of the 'black value system'. I also would like you to concede that you would NEVER vote for a white man who went to a church where they were upholders of a 'white value system'. (Neither would I)
'not all people who were POW's think John McCain walks on water,'
Who thinks he can walk on water? I just think he is the best qualified candidate among the 3.
'If being tired of old white men ruining this country makes me a bigot, so be it. I am an old white man bigot.'
I thought you were female... Didn't you say that you were previously?
Yes, voting for someone because of their race is bigotry. Yes, you are being bigoted. You seem to just glibly brush that off but it leads to poor decisions and it is not nice or even helpful to the causes that you want to advance.
'Problem is you are telling half truths'
WHERE? POINT THEM OUT!
'typical for the right-wing hate machine.'
Hate? You are judging me by your own yard stick. I do not hate Obama, I do not even know him. Tell me, would it be safe to assume that there are people on the 'right' that you hate? Hate is something else that clouds your judgment.
'I find it funny that you call ME the king of the name calling crew.'
I never called you that. However, despite the fact that I have to be 'nice' to idiots, liars and douche bags all day and I come here to vent, I am going to endeavor to be 'Mr.Nice' in the effort to persuade you of the unassailable logic and yes, truth of what I have posted.
'Your argument does not hold water. You have yet to prove one point in your argument, it is all speculation and half truths. '
Well, show me where I have lied. At this point you are basically stuffing your fingers in your ears and shouting 'LA LA LA LA' because you are cornered and your only resort is to ignore the obvious.
'I love wasting the super astronaut's (liar) time.'
I said I wanted to be one, not that I got in to the program. I just really, really liked Tang but I found out that you can buy it at the supermarket.
'Your world again. Speculation, half truths, distortion, all part of the right wing smear machine. If you have half the education you claim you would not need to resort to this type of 'argument'. Makes you a liar and a bigot.'
Gee, you like to call people 'liars' but you eventually concede that they are not lying. You like to call people 'bigots' but you have admitted here that your reasoning is tainted by bigotry. In summing up you throw all of that back at me with invective and shrill personal attacks... Even though it is inherently baseless. Just like the 'left wing smear machine', confusing volume with facts and defaulting to insults when you have no place left to go other then admitting that you are wrong.
'Where have I lied?'---See above, the entire argument.'
Not an argument, a rant, and you have yet to answer the question.
..the more you write the less you say. By all means, keep it up.
Nonetheless, none of that makes me wrong.
Time to man up, boy.
You either have to accept the heartbreak that Bush is at least smarter than his political opponents (not much of a stretch from where I sit!) or, that your libnazi leadership led you down the path of war for their own self-serving purposes.
Now, I'll admit that probably makes you cry like a little girl, but that is the equation you need to deal with.
Yep, ol GW jes sat back and said 'heck, we're gonna git whupped if'n wee doon't..s' lets jes git thire an kick some towelhaed ass!'
Give it up SP4, your rants are real old and you are wrong.
While this administration was full of intelligence, none of it rubbed off on your boy GWB. The crooks he surrounded himself happen to be very smart, devious and could care less about America. The best he had was Collen Powell, and he was even hung out to dangle in the wind---read his book so you can start bad mouthing him for having a different view ow GWB than you. The lies he told the United Nations still haunt the credibility of the US---let alone his credibility.
I am sure that GWB loves it when trolls like you are hanging on because Jesus told you to. And again SP4 you are a joke.
That Bush was stupid and the dems were smarter! Heck, I'll go with that!
So, it's true then, the dems just thought 'golly, this is our chance to rid ourselves of Saddam AND Bush all in one stroke!'.
Makes sense, except I think ol GW knew they were gonna bite! You see, he had the worm on the hook and look who wrapped their lips around it. NoHar is partially right, they may have been goaded into it, but given the constituancy, I really think they were prepping for 2004.
Saddam gone, but a war in progress, it would be perfect, except for the dems utter failure to understand the public.
Even Powell backed this play. Now here's a guy with real experience in Iraq. Ever wonder why he tied his line to the war? Well, he HAD to have had a reason! Certainly, HE knew about the WMD's! Heck, he was the one in the 90's who said 'the only real way to find them is to occupy the country.
Remember that? I'll bet you don't right? A lot of folks don't.
You know, you CAN make a good decision when you try! Now run along and beg that superdelegate of yours to vote correctly. Make sure you ask nice.
RE:'We have a congressman who is such a fool, it's hard to bring up the anecdotal information, it's so embarrassing. One only need to look at the reps they send up to believe your theory. Arguably, they are capable of some of the most boneheaded stuff. Nonetheless, I feel it's far more likely that most of them weighed the variables, or at least their advisors did, and had a reason, or reasons for doing so.'
If you really want to get to know them, watch them on C-Span. That's when their scripted and well-advised behavior breaks down. They often even forget the cameras are on them.
RE:'We had two senators who protested two wars. The last one was Hatfield. Now this was a guy who did not vote for it and then rail every day.'
And no one that I know of begrudged Mark Hatfield his moral sentiments and I know of no one who thought that he was anything completely sincere.
RE:'Saddam had to go. After he was captured, he admitted in his interrogation that while he'd stopped production of WMD's he fully intended to continue after the world went away. Saddam was the real WMD. He had used them, and the only target left was Israel.'
Oh, there was more than Israel on his target list, you can count on that, but this ignores the real advantage of having nuclear weapons in the Persian Gulf Area. All he ever had to do with his nukes, if he had ever managed to develop them, is to conduct one underground test. After that, he would have been the bully boy of the region. This fact is what makes the Bush Administration as nervous a cat on a hot tin roof over Iran. I think, but cannot prove, that Iran is what motivated the President to go into Iraq more than anything else.
His advisers, however, were a different matter. They wanted to go on a Democratic Jihad, spreading democracy to every country everywhere. Even worse, they wanted to do it on the cheap! Oh, and we should count Newt Gingrinch in on this little powwow during the build up to the war. They expected to make short work of Iraq and had that happened the way they expected we would have likely marched right on into Iran. From what I can see, that is what I believe they had on their weak little minds.
What we were hearing from the Neo-Cons, the real ones that is, was that the whole world is yearning to be free and that all that was really needed was for someone to come along and slay the tyrants. After that, forming new democracies would be all but automatic. According to the theory these new democracies would burst into existence as though they were popping corn. After all, who doesn't want to live free?
This stupid social theory of theirs has never been born out by history or even contemporary experience. It does not even match very well with our own history. It did not match very well with the behavior of defectors from communist countries to the United States. It does not match very well with the behavior of many prisoners who have served out their terms or have been released. The truth is, the majority does not like freedom and positively despises anything that resembles individualism. You want proof? Take a hard look at the Democrats and tell me what you see. After that, take a hard look at how the GOP behaves. It ain't pretty.
Despite all of the easily visible evidence to the contrary, the Neocons had absolute faith in their social theories and so we went into Iraq without enough people to take care of the country once the shooting stopped. Our military leaders knew better and told these space cadets that their theories were wrong and showed them the data. None of this impressed them in the least and Don Rumsfeld forced several good general officers to resign. We went into Iraq ignoring their advice and their carefully thought out plans and, guess what, our truly serious trouble began BEFORE the shooting stopped.
RE:'If this were allowed to happen, think of the crap we'd be bitching about now. The jews would nuke him, or worse. Moderate arabs gone, everyone out for blood.'
Forgive me, but I cannot seem to find any of these so-called 'moderate' Arabs. As far as I can tell, some of them are smarter and quieter as they go about achieving their aims. Many of them advocate 'peaceful coexistence'. Those are the ones who are smart enough to understand that time is on their side. Many of these quieter, 'moderate' Arabs are instigating trouble by encouraging the less patient of their number with money and religious instruction.
RE:'Bush is a simple risk averse careerist.'
Domestically, George Bush was bent on being one of the best Presidents we could have EVER had. Find me a Gooper willing to try and phase out Social Security. Find me one who will dare put the skids under the IRS. We will not get that from John McCain, you can bet. It's too bad that he fell in with the Neo-cons. It's too bad that he never read up on Ancient Athens and why the Framers of our Constitution never had a great deal of faith in democracy. He might have at least then had some influence on his advisers rather than being steered by them.
RE:'He never bargained for this and I feel he didn't really have this in mind when he started. 9/11 changed all that.'
His advisers, however, were eager to go into Iraq. They were looking for an excuse to go after Saddam Hussein and a great many Americans thought it was a mistake to leave Saddam in place at the end of the Persian Gulf War. Bush the Elder though, knew that he would find himself fighting a two front war. One in the Middle East and another back home and he decided to compromise by containing Saddam Hussein.
RE:'It's my view he had to have had information that he felt necessitated a move, or moves.'
I think he was worried about Iran more than he was Iraq. I also think that he was saddled with a very shaky situation in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are, despite their renowned piety, sitting on a powder keg. Invading Iraq and establishing bases there would have allowed us to invade any Middle Eastern country at the drop of a hat.
RE:'It was a sh-t sandwich and everyone had to take a bite. Leave Saddam? No way. Now these internationalists can talk, but they go back to their offices and know you cannot let this just go on. Publicly, these euros and other leaders could not politically back this. Privately, they were happy to sit by and watch. Bush was playing cleanup boy for them.'
One or two, perhaps, but most of them feared that the US would dominate the Middle East and then play favorites with the oil spigot. I think most of their objections were sincere. Besides, damned few leftists can think as clearly as you suggest. They wold not otherwise be leftists.
SP4, listen to Noharness. He backs things with facts, something you have no idea how to. His arguments are not the same thing over and over again---95% lacking anything to back them up.
Maybe. Bush didn't go into Iraq solely because of Iran. He may have stayed there for that reason, but face it, there was NEVER an exit strategy plan.
These guys thought the Iraqi's would form up a government quickly. They totally misunderstood the region, or, they simply didn't give a crap.(my guess i.e. too many advisors telling them otherwise)
Gingrich? My guess on him is he probably would be against going into Iraq, based on his opposition to the Bosnia mess. In the end, he backed Clinton, but real neocons don't like nation building.
Certainly Saudi, Iran, Kuwait were factors, but we had Saddam contained, so his move was to gas Israel. It was his only move left. This, or something like it, HAD to be a factor.
The goal of this exercise was to separate Bush myths from what any president sitting would do this for. Bush is a risk averse guy. None of this makes any sense without some underlying reason. To get elected? Hell, he GOT elected.
None of this would have happened with a spirited dissent in Congress. The reason the resolution was passed was because some dems decided it was worthwhile....for whatever reason.
For SP4 and his 30 second attention span I will try an keep it brief. It is made much easier as your 'points' are lacking any credibility, just right wing neo-con smear.
'Evidentially.'---Finally got you to admit that you talk to yourself. No one else wants to hear it.
'I even gave you the cliffs notes version: 'In this case it was: Speaking about Barack Obamas complete lack of qualifications, his dubious past and affiliations is not Bigotry. Voting for him in spite of them because it would be somehow satisfying to have a black president is. Disqualifying qualified candidates because they are white is bigotry. Racism to be precise.'---You use the cliff notes to get through your government funded ivy league education? 'dubious past and affiliations'---again with the rhetoric, you help write the smear book? White is not the issue---old is the issue.
'Like Wikpedia? It is just the fact, he went to school in Indonesia where his family registered him as a Muslim. It is not a 'smear' if it is truth. Are you afraid of the truth????? :-D'---Truth? You have yet to tell the whole truth, just a bunch of half truths. Or should I say Rush truths.
'His family registered him as such. I will however take his word when he says he is now a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ, where they practice 'the black value system'... Would you like a look at that? It is just the fact of the matter, not a smear.'---(what a dumb as-). we are back at the beginning---I have read the black value system, and only a person that would have a problem with people that are proud of their past, and wanting to support each other would be a bigot---that is you.
'No one could accuse you of acting. I meant that in a 'nice' way.'---Seeing how you are the one looking stupid here, take another look in the mirror.
'When I said he attended a school in Indonesia you called me a liar and said he was educated in Hawaii. When I trot out the name of this school he attended you accused me of 'smearing' your saint eer, candidate. When I cite evidence that he was registered by his family as a Muslim, he received religious training there and his sister has stated that they attended Mosque... well, you just don't want to hear that for some reason.
One thing you should know, The penalty that muslims give to those people who LEAVE their faith is death. (Note that is in no way a threat on my part, I am not a Muslim.)'---Again, liar. You said he attended a madrassa, and I said he went to school in Indonesia for 4 years and the rest of the time in Hawaii. Friggin liar, read your own crap.
'I am not a neocon, just fyi.'---You wish, hate the name but I think it fits you nicely.
'It has it's drawbacks.'---Your drawbacks are that you are wrong.
'Must be great to be a moonbat, always denying the obvious.'---What an idiot.
'Well..'The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Fear, fear and more fear, control the masses. Idotic[sic] to say the least.' tells me that you just want to bury your head in the sand and ignore that we are fighting an enemy that is thoroughly despicable, ruthless and committed to our destruction. snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory in Iraq and Afghanistan, (And yes, victory is possible) will just bring them here. These monsters are not joking around and they are not going away. They have been doing this for 1300 years...'---Victory is not possible, I guess you believe in the tooth fairy. You cannot kill all of them, no matter how much you believe that. We are loosing troops everyday and yet there is no defined 'victory'. Please define victory to us, enlighten the masses.
'All the way from Arizona? I live in lower Manhattan and knew people who were incinerated at their desks for being infidels. I have no time for people who want to go easy on the pieces of s**t that did that. You can not appease them, you can not negotiate with them. They need to be tracked down and killed.'---As smart as you are you probably know people can move don't you? You going to kill all of them? It really does not matter what you think. Only one vote, just like me!
'Well, calling me a liar (sniff, sniff) for saying that Obama went to school in Indonesia and then admitting that he did but calling me stupid because you don't have the class to admit that I was right and that you were wrong.'---again I have called you a liar for saying he attended a madrassa not for going to school in Indonesia, and I have done that again (see above).
'I just gave you the facts. He has said that, despite his ancestry, the fact that his family registered him in school as such and upbringing that he is not a Muslim and I take him at his word as I have said 3 times now.
I fully concede that Barack Obama is a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ and an upholder of the 'black value system'. I also would like you to concede that you would NEVER vote for a white man who went to a church where they were upholders of a 'white value system'. (Neither would I)'---please see above, continually repeating half truths never makes them the truth.
Who thinks he can walk on water? I just think he is the best qualified candidate among the 3.---glad you only have one vote, just like me.
'I thought you were female... Didn't you say that you were previously?'---How could this possibly have anything to do with the argument?
'Yes, voting for someone because of their race is bigotry. Yes, you are being bigoted. You seem to just glibly brush that off but it leads to poor decisions and it is not nice or even helpful to the causes that you want to advance.'---flashbacka again?
WHERE? POINT THEM OUT!---Everything you have said in regards to his religion, education and upbringing is half-truths.
'Hate? You are judging me by your own yard stick. I do not hate Obama, I do not even know him. Tell me, would it be safe to assume that there are people on the 'right' that you hate? Hate is something else that clouds your judgment.'---Didn't say you hated Obama, your hate is the distain you have for anyone that has a different point of view from yourself. I don't hate anyone on the right (maybe SP4) but I hate what they have done to this country.
'I never called you that. However, despite the fact that I have to be 'nice' to idiots, liars and douche bags all day and I come here to vent, I am going to endeavor to be 'Mr.Nice' in the effort to persuade you of the unassailable logic and yes, truth of what I have posted.'---What you work in a whorehouse?
'Well, show me where I have lied. At this point you are basically stuffing your fingers in your ears and shouting 'LA LA LA LA' because you are cornered and your only resort is to ignore the obvious.'---again see above. You have yet to get me in the corner.
'I said I wanted to be one, not that I got in to the program. I just really, really liked Tang but I found out that you can buy it at the supermarket.'---now that was funny.
Gee, you like to call people 'liars' but you eventually concede that they are not lying. You like to call people 'bigots' but you have admitted here that your reasoning is tainted by bigotry. In summing up you throw all of that back at me with invective and shrill personal attacks... Even though it is inherently baseless. Just like the 'left wing smear machine', confusing volume with facts and defaulting to insults when you have no place left to go other then admitting that you are wrong.---only when they lie or tell half-truths. I have not admitted that my reasoning is tainted by bigotry.
'Not an argument, a rant, and you have yet to answer the question.'---not a rant, the truth.
RE;'Maybe. Bush didn't go into Iraq solely because of Iran. He may have stayed there for that reason, but face it, there was NEVER an exit strategy plan.'
I beg disagree! There most certainly was an exit plan. The problem was, that the exit plan was unworkable in the very beginning and our Neocon leadership was so blinded by their faith in their theories that they did not have a Plan B at the ready.
RE:'These guys thought the Iraqi's would form up a government quickly. They totally misunderstood the region, or, they simply didn't give a crap.(my guess i.e. too many advisors telling them otherwise)'
Precisely my point.
RE:'Gingrich? My guess on him is he probably would be against going into Iraq, based on his opposition to the Bosnia mess. In the end, he backed Clinton, but real neocons don't like nation building.'
Oy vey! Newt Gingrinch was in Centcomm headquarters for months, pontificating and pronouncing and criticizing and offering his 'wisdom' at every turn. The Neocons are leftists at heart. They LOVE nation building!
RE:'Certainly Saudi, Iran, Kuwait were factors, but we had Saddam contained, so his move was to gas Israel. It was his only move left. This, or something like it, HAD to be a factor.'
Saddam Hussein was a tied and plucked chicken. Our leaders were so eager to on their Democratic Jihad that they became possessed with an 'idee fixe' or 'fixed idea.' They were so locked on target that they ignored all evidence that contradicted their claims, just as they ignored all the evidence that contradicted their social theories. They were COMPLETELY blinded by the little cage of rules that they had made for themselves and all outside advice was regarded as interference.
RE:'The goal of this exercise was to separate Bush myths from what any president sitting would do this for. Bush is a risk averse guy. None of this makes any sense without some underlying reason. To get elected? Hell, he GOT elected.'
And Iran equipped with both atomic bombs and aircraft to deliver them was certainly motivation enough. Do you have any idea what an Hiroshima class nuke would do to a squadron of ships in a narrow waterway like the Persian Gulf? Believe me, that would NOT be pretty.
RE:'None of this would have happened with a spirited dissent in Congress. The reason the resolution was passed was because some dems decided it was worthwhile....for whatever reason.'
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. The Dem's were not afraid of George Bush. They were scared spitless of US, the exceedingly angry American public. At that point in time, we were ready to stomp every ass from the Pacific coast to the Caucus Mountains. Any politician foolish enough to have stood in OUR way would have found himself facing a challenge in the very next primary race. The Democrats are not smart enough to plan the things you suggest. I have watched them for a long time. The smartest one of the Democrats in the House was Tom Lantos and he never not once wavered in his support for the invasion of Iraq. His motivation for invading Iraq was as plain as day. None of the rest of that bunch can think their way out of a wet paper sack. Just watch and listen to Nancy Pelosi. Between bouts of nausea you will suddenly discover that her IQ is somewhere around 90.
'--Finally got you to admit that you talk to yourself.
Only because you are emblematic of the typical leftist mentality: You only want to hear what you want to hear.
'No one else wants to hear it.'
So that is your objective? Shutting me up when I say that Obama was in fact registered as a Muslim in an Indonesian school that had a madrassah component? Or that he belongs to a church that espouses the ''the black value system''.. Oh, too bad, you are going to be hearing plenty of negative things about Barack in the coming months. People SHOULD be informed about this clown before they have to make a decision. Objecting that someone is telling them the truth is pretty infantile.
'dubious past and affiliations'---again with the rhetoric,'
It is the case. How can it be a 'smear' if it is the truth? Please answer that.
'Truth? You have yet to tell the whole truth, just a bunch of half truths.
Really, that is getting very old. You can not cite anything that I have said that is inaccurate yet you continue to label it as such. It is this incredible capacity to willfully not see the obvious that I find exasperating. You simply do not want to see something so you do not see it. That can't be working well for you in other areas of your life.
'Or should I say Rush truths.'
I do not, haven't ever listened to Rush Limbaugh. I might have heard the band 'Rush' as a teenager. Either way, lets suppose someone who you didn't like were telling you something. Does that automatically make it false? That seems to be the way you engage reality.
'-I have read the black value system, and only a person that would have a problem with people that are proud of their past, and wanting to support each other would be a bigot'
It is not a matter of being proud of their past, it is a matter of predicating their 'value' system on race. Are you trying to tell me that you would vote for a WHITE man who went to a 'church' that preached: 'Commitment to the White Community' (only hire white folk) 'Commitment to the White Family' (Keep the races separate) 'Adherence to the White Work Ethic' (WTF?) ' Disavowal of the Pursuit of 'Middleclassness'' (The middle class is the backbone of this country yet we are talking about voting for someone who has pledged to reject it.) 'Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community' on and on and on... You would vote for some white guy who believes that racist nonsense? Answer that please. I certainly wouldn't.
'Again, liar. You said he attended a madrassa,'
A madrassah is a school with a Islamic religious component. That is what he attended, and he attended it as a Muslim.
'and I said he went to school in Indonesia for 4 years and the rest of the time in Hawaii.'
Well, you posted this: 'No but they do in Hawaii where he was educated you idiot liar SP4 Jr.'... No mention of Indonesia there.
'You wish, hate the name but I think it fits you nicely. '
As I said, hate clouds judgment, you seem to be consumed by it. If Bush told you to not to jump off a bridge you would be over the side in a heartbeat. Has it ever occurred to you that mindset makes it easy to manipulate you? You are being yanked around by your nose by your prejudices and your 'hate' and you think that you are taking a reasoned stand for something. You haven't been able to articulate one yet.
'Victory is not possible'
So we should just roll over and follow bin ladens terms of surrender. We should convert to islam en masse, adopt Sharia law, retreat to our borders and give up our alliances with other countries. That is what he has said will appease him.
'You cannot kill all of them, no matter how much you believe that.'
No, but you can kill enough of them to make someone think twice about joining their jihad. More importantly you can humiliate them which to that mindset is even worse. The ones who will never give up until there is a new calaphate that strides the world certainly do need to be killed.
'Please define victory to us, enlighten the masses.'
In Iraq victory is establishing a government that is not inherently hostile to he United States, that embraces modernity over islamist backwardness, that is stable and not a threat to it's neighbors, that will not attack our allies in the region, that will not support terrorism on a state level, that is sovereign, capitalist, that sells it's oil on the open market and most importantly one that has rejected al Qaeda... ALL OF WHICH ARE BEING ACHIEVED. All of that progress is jeopardized by these idiots who are desperately trying to lose us this war. The consequences for this country would be catastrophic if Barack Obamna were allowed to turn Iraq over to al Qaeda and Iran which is what he has pledged to do.
'-As smart as you are you probably know people can move don't you?'
I do not believe you.
'again I have called you a liar for saying he attended a madrassa not for going to school in Indonesia,'
'Madrasah (Arabic: مدرسة, madrasa pl. madāris) is the Arabic word for any type of school, secular or religious (of any religion). It is variously transliterated as madrasah, madarasaa, medresa, madrassa, madraza, etc.'
Madrassah means school, In Barack Obamas case he attended a school in a Islamic country with a partial Islamic curriculum and he was registered at this madrassah as a Muslim. That is not a lie, unless his sister and the record keepers at these schools are liars.
So repeating over and over that it is a 'lie' is a bit ridicules at this point.
'-please see above, continually repeating half truths never makes them the truth.'
What specifically there is a 'half truth'? Please answer that.
'-How could this possibly have anything to do with the argument?'
Because you said that you were an 'I am an old white man bigot'. Perhaps you just meant that you hate old white men. Either way, not very admirable of you.
'flashbacka[sic] again?'
That was a non answer to 'Yes, voting for someone because of their race is bigotry. Yes, you are being bigoted. You seem to just glibly brush that off but it leads to poor decisions and it is not nice or even helpful to the causes that you want to advance.''
I am getting the idea that you have no problem with SOME kinds of bigotry as long as they are the kinds that you agree with. I am sure the Klu klux Klan would agree with that.
'Everything you have said in regards to his religion, education and upbringing is half-truths.'
No, and I have cited sources to back what I have said up. Simply calling it a lie is not refuting anything I have said. On the one hand I am glad the truth bothers you, hopefully that means that you recognize that there is something inherently wrong with the reasoning behind your support for this fellow. On the other hand the fact that you do not want to hear legitimate criticism, and seek to stifle it tells me though, that you do not care about the truth, you just want what you want and are being a spoiled brat about it. Either way, people have a right to know about this.
'Didn't say you hated Obama, your hate is the distain you have for anyone that has a different point of view from yourself. '
Nope, you are wrong. I don't hate you. Just do not expect me to jump on your bandwagon or adopt your opinions when I can challenge them like I have and your only response to a reasoned, referenced argument is to call me a 'liar'.
Where have I lied? Don't just write 'see above', be specific.
'--only when they lie or tell half-truths.'
You have yet to point out a lie that I have written. Indeed, that seems to be your only defense at this point. Jamb your fingers in your ears and repeat that over and over. It just looks infantile at this point.
'I have not admitted that my reasoning is tainted by bigotry.'
Well yes, you have, several times now. Would you like me to cut and paste them? Starting with: 'I am an old white man bigot'...
'not a rant, the truth.'
Not even close. A lame and deliberately obtuse closing yourself off to something that makes you uncomfortable to confront. I always find it sadly amusing me when I see someone who regards themselves as 'liberal' to be, in reality, seriously closed minded. That is the bandwagon you are hopping on.
So, if you are just going to lamely call me a liar over and over Mr.Nice is going to retire and the 'King of the name calling crew' is going to come out and bludgeon you with his royal scepter.
'So, if you are just going to lamely call me a liar over and over Mr.Nice is going to retire and the 'King of the name calling crew' is going to come out and bludgeon you with his royal scepter.'
Only in your own weak little mind. Give it your best shot, your rhetoric does not convince anyone---one vote for you---one vote for me.
'your rhetoric does not convince anyone-'
In other words you are a bigot who only sees what she wishes to see... how astonishing.
By the way, that's one carefully measured decision for me, one bigotry borne, bandwagon hopping, manipulated expression of your gullibility for you.
Forgot to mention not only do I have one vote, being a college professor I have a lot of influence over a lot of first time voters. They know what they want so I guess it is one vote for you thousands for us.
'In other words you are a bigot who only sees what she wishes to see... how astonishing.'
And you call yourself educated. Must of 'Cliff Noted' your way through MIT and probably never finished. English must not have been your strong subject?
'Forgot to mention not only do I have one vote, being a college professor I have a lot of influence over a lot of first time voters.'
Lets assume for the sake of argument that you are not full of it and someone was actually stupid enough to trust you with young people. I am sure that your home economics class at the community college will be as bowled over by your inarticulate hissy fit as I was.
'They know what they want so I guess it is one vote for you thousands for us.'
I think it is telling that you already regard their votes as yours. What that tells me is that you are not very good at your job. Teaching is about enabling students to go through the thought processes to make rational decisions. Since you haven't been taught that you go to what you know: Indoctrination. Having come this far with your deliberate anti-intellectual mind set and your hysterical bigotry I think it is a safe bet that they are just laughing at the obnoxious fool who is trying to foist her opinions off on them instead of doing the job she was hired to do.
'And you call yourself educated. '
As a matter of fact I do. There is a big difference between education and simply regurgitating the opinions that have been fed to you. I do not regard you as any more educated then a trained parrot. I was able to recognize early on the opinion pushers who laughably regarded themselves as 'teachers' or 'professors'. That freed me up to critically analyze things for myself, without prejudice. Something that you have shown yourself completely incapable of doing.
Oh, I forgot to mention: Not only do I have one vote; having money, being articulate, reasoned and connected gives me a hell of a lot more opportunity to effect this election then you will get whining at the kids you are screwing up. Indeed, since your psyco-babble seems to be the quality of the oppositions argument... seeing as it is basically the ONLY thing the opposition is offering you are messing with your kids minds to no effect. (Provided they haven't tuned you out completely by now.)
'cankles', now that hurts---not really coming from someone who probably has a big gut, flabby as- and a short penis. Plus if I remember correctly someone else on this board already 'outed' you boy toy.
Hey boy-toy:
'Lets assume for the sake of argument that you are not full of it and someone was actually stupid enough to trust you with young people. I am sure that your home economics class at the community college will be as bowled over by your inarticulate hissy fit as I was.'
Now you are really grasping, getting desperate? 1st 2nd or 3rd largest university in the country, depends on who is counting.
'I think it is telling that you already regard their votes as yours. What that tells me is that you are not very good at your job. Teaching is about enabling students to go through the thought processes to make rational decisions. Since you haven't been taught that you go to what you know: Indoctrination. Having come this far with your deliberate anti-intellectual mind set and your hysterical bigotry I think it is a safe bet that they are just laughing at the obnoxious fool who is trying to foist her opinions off on them instead of doing the job she was hired to do.'
The only thing that is 'telling' is your ignorance. I have tenure so I really don't have to do a good job enough to please a neo-con nut-job like you. And idiot, I did not convince my students of anything. If you had used your vast file-system you would see that I originally supported Ms. Clinton---my students convinced me to switch to Mr. Obama. So your theory just does not support a thing you have said. Now to make sure you understand, there were 2762 students that put $20 into a pot to send to Mr. Obama. Now I know the math may be a bit up there for you, but that is $55,240 in one drive. And they can do it every month and get more from their friends---from just one university.
'As a matter of fact I do. There is a big difference between education and simply regurgitating the opinions that have been fed to you. I do not regard you as any more educated then a trained parrot. I was able to recognize early on the opinion pushers who laughably regarded themselves as 'teachers' or 'professors'. That freed me up to critically analyze things for myself, without prejudice. Something that you have shown yourself completely incapable of doing.'
Like you are not the regurgitating king---what a joke. Everything you say on this board comes from the neo-con republican't playbook. You are probably arrogant enough to think they are your thoughts, but sorry---playbook. By the way you are not doing a very good job of 'critically analyze things for myself' you could fill in for Rush any day he needed to recover from his drug hangover.
'Oh, I forgot to mention: Not only do I have one vote; having money, being articulate, reasoned and connected gives me a hell of a lot more opportunity to effect this election then you will get whining at the kids you are screwing up. Indeed, since your psyco-babble seems to be the quality of the oppositions argument... seeing as it is basically the ONLY thing the opposition is offering you are messing with your kids minds to no effect. (Provided they haven't tuned you out completely by now.)'
Wow, so impressive, money articulate, reasoned and connected---wow. You can do all you want by you are not going to make one dam bit of difference. Again my kids whom most are the age to be stupid enough to go over to Iraq to be ground into fodder by an administration that cannot do anything but blah-blah-blah democracy this democracy that, all for a group of people who were content to have Saddam running things. They are the ones that have to die so you neo-con nuts can get an erection watching the dead troops come home. It is this group of people that is going to show you that no matter how much money you have , how articulate (questionable), reasoned (real questionable) and connected (hope you at least get a reach around for this one toyboy), they are the ones that are going to determine the next election. I don't believe you are going to get a group of 'kids' to vote for one that is older than their grandparents.
' coming from someone who probably has a big gut, flabby as- and a short penis.'
OK Rosanne, we get it; the constant rejection has turned you against men. Don't blame the gender, blame the gag reflex. Why don't you handle it your usual way and curl up with a gallon of Ben and Jerry's to take the edge off. That should help with the hot flashes as well.
'Plus if I remember correctly someone else on this board already 'outed' you'
Well no, surprisingly enough you do not remember correctly. Add homophobia to your list of pet hates. Bigot. Besides, how could I be gay? You and I have never dated.
'1st 2nd or 3rd largest university in the country, depends on who is counting.'
Add inability to count to your list of handicaps then.
' I have tenure'
So did Ward Churchill. That doesn't make you a good or effective teacher. Indeed, it only signifies that you have traded your reason away for the orthodoxy that lamentably passes for scholarship in the cloistered academic atmosphere. (Especially in those less competitive schools where you don't have to publish to get tenure.) We can just add you to the long list of incompetents who ran back to the last place that she had a wee bit of success at who is locked in to the mindset that gets rewarded there. Just don't expect to be taken seriously outside the echo chamber if you can't back your ideas with a reasoned argument.
'so I really don't have to do a good job enough '
A 'good job enough'... please don't tell me that it is English that you supposedly teach.
Once again:
'I have tenure so I really don't have to do a good job enough '
In other words, it is difficult to fire you so you can continue to be lousy at what you do. You are breaking a sacred trust that has been placed in you. You have forgone your calling to inform and replaced it with one to manipulate. You are doing this to people who are impressionable. If I thought you had the capacity to be ashamed I would advise you that you should be. Seeing that you are a selfish little spoiled brat who just wants what she wants and doesn't care about how she gets it I won't bother.
'And idiot, I did not convince my students of anything.'
Or teach them no doubt. Tell me, do you ever do any classwork out there in Arizona which has somehow become the the home of the 1st 2nd or 3rd largest university in the country?
'If you had used your vast file-system you would see that I originally supported Ms. Clinton---my students convinced me to switch to Mr. Obama.'
Congratulations bandwagon hopper, you let the 'academic' echo chamber make another decision (You know, the one that you can't defend worth a damn) for you. So if you can't defend it to one of us Neanderthals who are out in society actually 'doing' by all means retreat to your own little intolerant, anti-intellectual world for the validation that insecure people crave. I am sure that following the herd makes you 'feel' that your 'reasoning' is unassailable. It hasn't proven to be the case out here though, has it?
' Now to make sure you understand, there were 2762 students that put $20 into a pot to send to Mr. Obama.'
You would have thought that would have made the news... I couldn't find anything about students from Arizona donating their beer money to obama. That is something else that doesn't add up, sort of like... you moved to Arazona from New York after 9/11/01 to teach in the 1st 2nd or 3rd largest university in the country and were given tenure in record time.... Hummmm.
'Like you are not the regurgitating king---what a joke.'
Aaah yes, once again the 'ol I am rubber you're glue gambit. As always, quite imaginative.
'Everything you say on this board comes from the neo-con republican't playbook.'
Gee, 'republican't'... Nothing that says 'dailykos' like that. (Another herd that you like to feel safe in no doubt.) And where could I see a copy of this 'neo-con' play book? If it is from a 'play-book' It should have been possible for you to put fourth a reasoned counterargument instead of this meaningless psyco-babble. What does that say about your thinking skills when the only thing that you can do in the face of some 'idiot' who is following some kind of 'playbook' is to repeatedly call him a 'liar'? Even when this 'idiot' has cited references that you can not refute? I guess that makes YOU the idiot.
'You are probably arrogant enough to think they are your thoughts, but sorry---playbook.'
Well then, certainty you can cite this 'playbook' that has tricked me in to a 'false consciousness'? Otherwise you would be a paranoid clown...
' By the way you are not doing a very good job of 'critically analyze things for myself''
And where have I gone wrong? Not that I expect that you will answer that as you have ignored my other questions repeatedly. You only see what you want to see. How 'open minded'. You hate people you disagree with, how 'liberal'. You regard yourself as 'educated' for parroting the ideas that have been positively reinforced with the bandwagon validation that you are needy enough to crave... You are a study in self deception and mental masturbation.
' you could fill in for Rush any day he needed to recover from his drug hangover.'
I wouldn't know, however, we are back to the whole 'just because you 'hate' someone doesn't make them wrong' part of the program. You have yet to disprove anything I have asserted. Just poured out your psyco-babble.
'Wow, so impressive, money articulate, reasoned and connected---wow'
I know, not quite the lofty title of hysterical, insecure drama queen who needs to believe what she wants to believe regardless of whatever evidence is confronting her in order to have the validation of her peer group. I will have to console myself that we raise more at our fundraisers then you do at your keg parties, even if I did lose a shirt stud at the last one. :-D
'You can do all you want by you are not going to make one dam bit of difference.'
I think unqualified Obama and his narcissistic wife will actually do themselves in in spectacular fashion. You can bet though that if there is anything I can do to help them in that endeavor I, and many more like me will be more then happy to help.
'Again my kids whom most are the age to be stupid enough to go over to Iraq'
Your kids eh? Another telling bit of ranting psyco-babble from the inarticulate gender studies teacher. If someone is in the Armed forces of the USA they are 'stupid'?
'by an administration that cannot do anything but blah-blah-blah democracy this democracy that,'
You don't like democracy either, eh? I wonder if they make a burqua in your size? Sure... It just says 'Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey' on the side.
'hey are the ones that have to die so you neo-con nuts can get an erection watching the dead troops come home.'
Not a 'neo con' and that is also telling of just how crazy you are. Those troops that you like to disparage died to keep you safe and secure. Too bad you have used their sacrifice to become an overgrown spoiled child who has the audacity to look down your nose at better people then yourself.
'how articulate (questionable)'
There is no question as to you being an inarticulate idiot.
'reasoned (real questionable)'
There is no question as to you being an irrational, shrill fool who can not articulate a reasoned counterargument. You are with out question a bigoted, braying ass with hypocritical delusions of moral superiority to rationalize your fundamental moral cowardice.
' and connected (hope you at least get a reach around for this one toyboy)'
You can add obvious sexual frustration to the long list of your mental maladies. I wonder why the guys don't go for such a needy, nasty shrew?
'they are the ones that are going to determine the next election.'
That is what they said about the last one, and the one before that. Indoctrinate harder because it ain't working. Either that or perhaps your imagined toy soldiers are just telling you what you want to hear. Maybe you need to just stop paying lip service to 'education' and start in with the 'reeducation'. Not that you wouldn't blow that as well...
'I don't believe you are going to get a group of 'kids' to vote for one that is older than their grandparents.'
Nice little echo chamber you inhabit. What do you want to bet that Arizona goes to McCain? Poor dear... All that indoctrination for naught! LOL!
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