US News
Jun 12, 2007, 18:47 GMT
BACKGROUND: 100 million deaths under communism
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Older Talkback
To Chad Lovewell and all others who find a sense of organization and comfort in dwelling on semantics, as well as so many others who bring many (unrelated) grievances to this forum - CONGRATULATIONS! Unlike many of us who got to 'enjoy' the regimes first hand as children and young adults and fought tooth and nail to get as far away from it, you had the LUXURY to postulate and read about the events that led to the brutal consequences of the socio-economic movements like Communism and Socialism...I am delighted that you had the opportunity to read a few sterile books, spend some time in your busy lives to learn more about this topic .... AND HAD THE DUMB LUCK TO BE BORN IN A SOCIETY THAT MAKES IT OK TO HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT IT. Communism and socialism only 'work' on a small scale, in an academic, sterile environment - unaffacted by human nature, emotions, maslowian needs and other very basic influences that can not be separated from what makes us human. Societies and political regimes that attempted to make them work managed to do so at the cost of human life, creativity, basic rights and, often, diginity and respect for others. A dictatorship and a rule of force by any other name is what is ultimately required to make a 'go' of it, because that is how the rules and guidelines may be enforced - or go out the window. Go on, make the snide comment or two, complain about the monument because it does not fit your agenda or dismiss it all as make believe all together. For those of us who know more about it than we ever wanted to know, it will stand as a small reminder of what naivte like yours may allow, while having a side bar discussion about a dictionary definition of a term.
Communism is also responsible for public education, health care, worker's rights, the end of child labor, the equality of women, the end of rank and privileged nobility/monarchies, the first man in space, the defeat of Hitler's Germany, and the curtailing of western imperialism. No matter how you argue it China's improved under communism, before Mao took over it was a corrupt dynasty, half of it conquered by Japan, and all of it full of poor starving uneducated farmers. Now look at the skyline of Shanghai and get back to us on how evil Communism was for China. Russia also could do nothing but go uphill from its bumbling and out of touch Tsars who had lost not only WWI, but the war with Japan before that, and the Crimean War before that, while keeping the mass of its people serfs bound to the land without a chance at self-improvement. A few evil people have taken communism and used it for genocide and personal aggrandizement. That has nothing to do with Communism, one of the greatest advances in civilization, humanity, and decency, which is taken for granted now across the whole world. Next time you curse the damn Reds, take a moment to thank them for your liberty, your security, and your equality, because they fought and died for you.
It has been my experience that fundamentalism and Idealism on both sides of an issue tend to be wrong. Most of the comments here are Idealistic and or fundamentalist. The truth usually lies in the middle.
A friend of mine once put America in perspective for me. He was a Nigerian national who was extremely excited to be in the USA. He was showing me pictures of his families home and as he came from a wealthy Nigerian family they had a cement house. When I commented on the cement walls he explained that they were 2ft thick reinforced with steel plating. 'to stop the AK-47 rounds'
How many people live in much worse conditions? I understand why the people who have never been to America hate Americans so much. Americas' poorest poor live 10 times better then the average citizen in many countries.
Most of the time the reason for this poverty is NOT the Americans but the dictators, fundamentalists, and communists that use their political systems to dominate and subjugate others. I do acknowledge that America has supported unhealthy regimes and America has caused deaths, not as many as some of the comments have stated though.
The real issue is that America has become the only worlds super power. America holds the majority of the worlds wealth. All America has to do is pretend it is China or Japan and control the value of the dollar instead of allowing it to float on the open market. America could then devalue the dollar and destroy every economy in the entire world. (yes including its own but the American economy is so much more resilient then any other, it can survive and even thrive under such conditions) And no one on the block likes it when the big kid can defeat everyone, thus everyone is jealous and scared of the big kid.
How can we fly people into space when people need food? That's about the intelligence level of many people posting in here. Massacred Indians, Latin America, etc? If you feel so strongly about that, go get contributions and build a statue. Don't bother coming into this thread and posting nonsensical side-discussion that you KNOW are not relevant to this statue and opening ceremony. BTW - Communism is STILL killing people and the main difference between regional wars and this, is that communism devours its own; millions and millions of its own. You defend it, you become either a victim or enabler. To the millions before you, many were both.
These idiots who group America in with communist countries amazes and scares me. It's as if these spoiled brats know anything about what they're talking about. The one moron who said the poor indians were driven from they're land etc,.. I wonder if this loser ever put some thought into how the indians got here. They were beemed in by Scottie apparently. The Crow indians were forced out by the various indian tribes before the 'evil white men' forced them off.
This moron sounds like a college graduate who works for Starbucks coffee and sports green hair and a nose ring.
And you sound like a fat pompous bonehead who's going to be eating some humble pie when the housing market collapses, and when his beloved capitalism outsources his job to India.
Oh, but who will honor the victims of Capitalism?
Just remember. Competition implies there needs to be a loser; someone has to get screwed. Who is it, who is it...
How many deaths under Capitalism???
'So you're screamin' bloody murder 'bout the Taliban Regime,
subjigating women, and being too extreme?
And basing legislation on some ancient 'holy book?'
Does that sound a BIT familiar? Here's America. HAVE A LOOK!'
Sorry but in terms of 'scale of horrificness' communism does not dwarf all others. Religion does.
Is it so hard for some to understand that propaganda and brainwash are not the exclusivity of North Korea and Stalinist countries alone .THat even in the so called free west propaganda exists and is very succesfull.Free Speech is a fiction when the press is in the hands of Murdoch,Berlusconi,Springer ,Maxwell and some otheres .Those guys dictate what gets in the newspapers .You van hand out some flyers in the streets to but that is about it ,there is no competition against these conglomerates offering alternative points of view .Yhe simplistic view that has always been propagated in the american media on socialism and communism is a distorted and incomplete picture,forged by the media .It completely disregard the rich historic past of the american workers movements in contributing to the present living conditions of people in the USA.It appears that part of american history has been swept under the carpet .
On the other hand it is a bit unjustified to blame to extermination of native indians on america as such .If my memory serves me right ,that sad part of history occured during a period of massive immigration into america from europe .A lot of less educated people living in miserable conditions in europe ventured out to america in hope for a better future .THeir opinion of native american tribes was not different from that of contemporary white americans .THey too regarded them as an obstacle in the gaining plots of land for agriculture .Fair is fair ,the europeans viewed at the Cherokees,the Crow,Choctaws etc as no different from black tribes in africa ,savages,an obstacle to colonisation. Nothing is gained at misrepresenting historical facts .
But to get back to the issues of communism and the perception of it by americans it would help understanding that Marx and Engels were very intelligent people;driven by justified indignation confronted with the appaling squalor in which the industrial workers of 19th century lived .
It was born as an idealistic movment and its ideas are responsible indeed for cobtributing to human wellfare.Unless of course you happen to believe that capitalists used to hand out the profits they generated from the labor force they employed generosely without any kind of struggle.
Communism as a concept is perfect except for one thing. People. It is the corruption of individual people that obtain power without any checks and balances that have caused so much poverty and death.
Communism cannot survive. China can only suppress its population for so long, they have opened Pandora’s box and it is only a matter of time before the communists loose power. Unlike America who gets a vote when the Chinese people throw down the communist regime it will be very bloody.
Castro and his family will not be in power forever either. Cuba is a very small island nation so it is easier to control the populace, thus Cuba’s freedom from communism will take longer.
'And how many political deaths have there been from democracy?
....exactly'
I'm sorry what does Democracy have to do with Communism? One is a form of government the other is an economic system. Anyway this monument is an affront to all those killed by Stalin and his ilk. Let us not blame a flawed economic system but rather the governments and leaders themselves. Lets be specific and not let the murderers hide behind the excuse of 'Communism'.
BTW We're kidding ourselves if we think Capitalism = Democracy/Freedom. If you believe that please visit China/Russia and step on the Governments toes see what happens. Capitalism is great but it alone does not guarantee freedom.
Well I guess sometimes some people on these forums get ad hominem,
to respond to the person that imagines me as a person with green hair and a nose ring. I have news for you, I do not fit any of the previous description with the exception of the education part, for your information I am a medical student and dont listen to punk rock. Maybe one day I will have to take care of you or your family because you wont be able to afford the high insurance premiums due to the fact that the HMO CEO's have sucked every penny you have in your beloved Capitalist perfect system.
Another thing, no I dont work for starbucks either, and I was born and lived in the roughest parts of Los Angeles where I saw for myself what the true naked expression of capitalism is: GANGS, DRUG TRAFFICKING, SOCIAL DECAY.
Well enough of that, I believe that many of the negative responses that were thrown out here about communism come about due to the Cold War propaganda that was disseminated far and wide throughout the 'Western World'
I believe that the only way people will get a better picture about what communism really is will be through educating themselves, to start pick up the 'Communist Manifesto' read it and then compare those ideas to the prejudices that you have been wrongly taught.
Plus I would like to point out some of the things that I am sure have already been said.
To refresh people's memory or to enlighten them many of the institutions and practices that we take for granted today were inspired by communist/socialist and syndicalist movements in the United States,
here are a few:
Food And Drug Administration: Upton Sinclair's 'The Jungle' (HE WAS SOCIALIST)
Social Security
Abolishment of child labor
Civil Rights
Women's Rights
Labor Unions
Worker's compensation
So my dear friends, next time you go about saying kill all reds Communism is evil, or the such look where at how you live and what is going on around you and whenever you are laid off and your job is sent overseas dont blame India or Latin America,
look at the source of the problem, the 1% who own the means of production and raw materials in the world and laugh at how easily they can spread ignorance just so that they can ride around in their Rolls-Royce and eat Caviar.
As the communist Manifesto says:
'WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!'
I agree that there is no reason why communism should not be mixed with democracy .A society where 1 percent of the population owns wealth and means of production,newspapers,television stations ,spike the two only political parties in existence can hardly be called the pinnacle of freedom and democracy .There must be more to the label democracy .
The biggest problem is the ease with which people like Stalin were able to derail the russian revolution into a repressive inhumane system of self glorification and brainwashing .
But the idea of planned economy,state property might be profitable to society ,more so then private ownership of industry ,in the future .THe sheer lack of will to take the necessary steps in shielding the muman race from future catastrophic climate changes seems to indicate that .There is no will from corporate america or other major world players to curb the lifethreatening carbon emission Profir is the only thing that matters.Your future is simply no interest to them .So sooner or later things will have to change and the nations will have to seize private means of production if the likes of EXXON continue to disinform the population.
THe confiscation of major oil industry would easily pay for the bill of fighting global warming.It would also be an act of justice as they are the major poluters,not you and me.
Here's one for the libs out there. How about a memorial honoring the millions that have died of malaria because it was determined that DDT was harmful to bird's eggs. How about a giant bronze mosquito?
Wow, Kathy. I have to hand it to ya'... that was really dumb.
PS - I was not aware that malaria is caused by a lack of DDT. Thanks for clearing that up.
Reality, just trying to make a point here. Perhaps democracy/capitalism has caused deaths just as communism has just as liberals have. Go to google-type in DDT malaria dead. Read the 1st page,although there are many. The number of malaria cases and deaths from the disease are there and counting in live time.
the communists did a lot of good things, like defeating the nazi's.
had i lived during the cold war i would escape to eastern europe if only for the hypocratie of the us.
you had free speech but communists could not work for the goverment and lies where sperd all aroubnd the world about them like ''communist=chaos''
the communists where more orely then those capitalist pigs
WTF...
I dont know why communism is blamed for this. People who say this are morons. Does anyone knows howm any people were killed due to capitalism? Take recent examples of Iran, Afghanistan, Palestine, Slovenia etc.. etc... Blind race to occupy million dollar business and wealth have resulted in miserable life for people over there. Who is responsible for this?
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