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Jan 3, 2007, 8:43 GMT
FBI details Guantanamo abuse witnessed by its agents
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Older Talkback
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Oh Yes and Sam You forgot one that the american survivors have been trying to get an enquiry into since 1967.
The pentagon gave permission to the israelis to bomb an american naval ship
'the liberty' so that america could blame the Egyptions and nuke Cairo.
but they only managed to kill 35 with torpedoes, missiles and napalm for any survivors. but the engineers managed to send out an SOS asking why the Israelis
were trying to kill them and the 5 scrambled american jets had to go back.
This is a perfect example of how israel and america have used the death of americans to start oil wars. They also say they knew nothing about 9/11
before it happened. But several mossad agents were arrested and immediately
released after being caught filming it and cheering.
History notwithstanding, I think Kurt Vonnegut summed up well (http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/dear_mr_vonnegut3/):
'But America was certainly hated all around the world long before this coup d’etat. And we weren’t hated, as George W. Bush would have it, because of our liberty and justice for all. We are hated because our corporations have been the principal deliverers and imposers of new technologies and economic schemes that have wrecked the self-respect, the cultures of men, women and children in so many other societies.'
Sam, you seem to not like American's very much --- fair enough. As Kurt Vonnegut said,
'But America was certainly hated all around the world long before this coup d’etat. And we weren’t hated, as George W. Bush would have it, because of our liberty and justice for all. We are hated because our corporations have been the principal deliverers and imposers of new technologies and economic schemes that have wrecked the self-respect, the cultures of men, women and children in so many other societies.'
Nonetheless, to group American's into a single group is a bit naive to say the least. There are plenty of us who oppose the use of our military as a global police force especially in the manner in which our current president has espoused. There are those of us who bike and use public transit when we can. Those of us who would rather spend our taxes on universal health care than an unfettered military complex. And its not a small minority; as recent elections have attested, the US is fairly closely divided in our feelings on numerous issues. Hopefully things will change. Hopefully America will begin to see that our unilateralism and isolationism is out of place in the modern world.
Oops sorry about the double post, I thought I hit cancel the first time.
This isn't anything to do with the systematic torture of prisoners at Gitmo,nor the denial to let them have access to lawyers, but is well worth a look...
http://icasualties.org/oif/
let me see if I understand this correctly: The FBI, famed for Waco, and trumping up fingerprints on an Oregon attorney, now are trying to pass themselves off as some kind of backseat drivers in Gitmo?
The FBI has stuck it's face in everything, but was unable to see the obvious threat on 9/11. How about getting them focused on their job?
Beisdes,ALL of this is non-lethal torture, and most of it really does no harm.
ALL of these techniques are used to TRAIN our OWN people, making the argument moot.
..at Gitmo. This is a LIE.
SP4
well , i certainly drew you boz'oz out of the wood-work now , didn't I . serves you right to suffer .
Why is it the general public's place to criticize all that happens around us? Why don't you bleeding heart-types instead work on how you can improve your own neighborhood, town or state. You all are probably the same people that are concerned over the kind of rope used in hanging Saddam Hussein. Be happy that we live in a country of freedom that allows you to even know what is going on around the world. Stop sticking your nose into every area of confrontation and leave it to the individuals that are elected/hired/chosen to be in charge of whatever it is that bugs you. Maybe if you instead worry about your marriage, job, debts, family and friends you might even find yourself happier and with more time on your hands to stare at your balding head, gapped teeth or fat rear end. How would you like it if someone comes and picks at all you do and shows you how you can't do anything right. How about if you were president? I am sure all would be perfect then, wouldn't it?
Nice cut and paste job Sam.
sam , brian , blaine , you guys are so lame . george ! now you might want to pay strick attention to these bunch .
Nobody here is suggesting that Americans be weak on the field of battle. I wholeheartedly believe that violence should indeed be met with violence, and the aggressor forced to STOP. It is the hallmark of a just society that violence be employed only when NECESSARY, and not merely when DESIRED.
By the philosophical position of the earlier poster, it should be legally and morally justified to (for instance) imprison and torture my boss for unjustly denying me a raise and ruining a recommendation. You bet I'm angry, upset, and taken advantage of. He might deserve a horrible fate, but surely it should not be legal to impose it.
Due process is the fundamental cornerstone of freedom. By abusing detainees, we truly abuse ourselves, for it is but an accident of legal fiction that most of our own citizens have yet to be classified in such a way that they may be treated in this manner. Once it is allowed for the state to abuse individuals, there is little to stop those individuals from being one of us. We must make our moral choices as though we were deciding for the entire world. In order to be Just, our actions must survive scrutiny across the SCALE of our entire government, and those of other nations, were they to choose the same course. If you believe it OK for agents of the state to torture individuals, then you are truly un-American in the political sense. This country was founded to preserve the rights of men, and the concept of due process, in direct opposition to the then-existing political systems of the world.
If your family is brutally murdered by a psycho/terrorist/whatever, I will not judge you for personally destroying them in vengeful rage. However, the state, being the both the steward and servant of its citizens must never be allowed to act in such a way. The state has no excuse for vengeful rage. Its first duty is to protect its citizens from threats both internal and external. Opening the moral door to internal torture and process-deprived detention is a failure to protect its citizens even before abuses are committed. The excuse that these detainees in question are enemies is no excuse for vengeful rage of the state. If our political philosophy of due process is moral and just, then it is applicable and must be applied to all of those with whom our nation interacts. Otherwise, we are a nation of hypocrites and deserve no moral pedestal.
Many assume that we are right in whatever we do merely because we are Americans. This is the lunacy of faith. A geographical accident of birth does not make a moral man. Intractable belief in his own righteousness does not make a moral man. Ethics and morality are HARD. Every day, and every year, each situation must be examined. The moral man must examine his own motivations, actions, and effect on the world around him. He must question his own judgment, for mere faith is not a moral baptism.
The other unspoken assumption of those who condone torture of detainees by the state is that this activity will keep us safe. This is patently, ridiculously, false. Torture serves only to satisfy the blood-lust of the torturer. Torture does NOT produce reliable intelligence. Period. This has been demonstrated, and this view is endorsed by those who should know. Torture paints us as ugly hypocrites in the eyes of the rest of the world, and we lose respect as a people - respect that used to be a safety net against attack when traveling abroad. Torture puts our citizens in danger as targets. It puts our captive troops in further danger of retribution. It puts our policies at risk of abandonment by our allies.
It is a sad, but inevitable human fact that our country's history is rife with heinous violations of those lofty principles on which it was founded. It's saving grace is a structure and ethos which strives to overcome its shortcomings. The undermining of that ethos will be the downfall of America.
If this country ever wishes to truly embody the 'shining beacon on a hill' as described by Ronald Reagan, we cannot smear feces from the gutter on our reputation. Protecting our reputation is not something to be done with Public Relations and the hiding of our dark activities, but by refusing to engage in those dark activities in the first place, exposing the workings of our government so that none have reason to suspect we do otherwise, and by punishing those among us who betray our ideals of freedom, fair treatment, and due process, for they are truly not Americans.
-E
keep it coming guys . keep it coming .
O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An foolish notion:
What airs in dress an gait wad lea'es us,
An ev'n devotion!
Robert Burns
Years ago ,non combative ,totally innocent civilians used to be snatched off the streets,then thrown into secret jails ,tortured,often for years,denied access to lawyers,before being finally railroaded in front of a Kangaroo Court to be sentanced or summiarly executed.
Yes, that was of course Joseph Stalin's Russia and Adolf Hitler's Germany.
Don;t let it happen in G.W.Bush's USA!.
What is so profoundly disturbing at present, is the reports of a military 'Courthouse' (and presumably execution facilities), currently being constructed at Guantamano Bay.
A number of INNOCENT suspects who were tortured (but later released without charge) are seeking redress in the Law Courts.
I wouldn't advise Rumsfeld to visit Germany,
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