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Jun 16, 2009, 12:03 GMT
Communism is target of new online museum
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Older Talkback
...but Haiti is not really a democratic nation. Once you grow up, you'll realize corrupt regiemes are really totalitarian ones. As for Cuba, Americans have a saying: 'no one is trying to build a boat to go back to Cuba.'
Now run along and inform yourself.
Negative growth for so-called united states for two years in a row. YEAH DIE BITCH!
tAKE THAT BITCH
..because a marxist nation (China) adopted Capitalism in order to lift itself from the worst poverty in the world, and is now the fastest growing economy on earth.
Now run along and inform yourself.
'adopted Capitalism'
Since when, a-hole. It is still a Communist country, internally. It uses capitalism when dealing with the outside world. This is no different than what Communist Russia did. F*ck, are you ever an idiot.
I think something to remind us of Communism is a great idea. A sort of 'Unnatural History Museum' as it were.
Perhaps a theme park next!
Everyone could be given an identical 'standard comrade' sized Boiler suit at the entrance, guaranteed not to fit and, say, $500 worth of 'peoples recreation' coupons in return for however much they had on them at the gate, to spend on the rides. Not actually go on them of course, as they'd all be broke. But folk could get the feel of the era by queuing up for them for several hours each before trudging on to look at the next one. Loudspeakers could transmit very bad martial music, inspiring Soviet era statistics and anti-Disney propaganda about the 'Pirates of the Carribean' feature having sunk every thirty seconds. The cafe would advertise Smoked Salmon, Beluga Caviar, and Fillet Steak. After enjoying the five hour queuing experiece, prospective diners would then be handed very small but socialistically identical helpings of Beetroot Soup.
The entire place could be surrounded by a thick, 20 foot high concrete wall festooned with barbed wire and machine gun nests to provide an authentic Gulag or Berlin Wall feel. This would be advertised as necessary to safeguard the ideological purity of the site and to prevent hordes of starving western escapees trying to enter the revolutionary paradise.
At 6pm each day a section of the wall would be knocked over and the tourists would emerge back into the real world, still clutching their unspendable coupons and nearly having lost the will to live.
Just like the real thing! I can hardly wait to avoid it. Still the museum is a brilliant idea!
AND, SP, SP! Have you noticed! Some of the exhibits can TALK to us!
STALINTASTIC!
..I have to say you put some real thought into it. I'd like to see a ride called 'Enchantment Under the Sea..Comrade!' where political prisoners would be herded onto barges and then the barge sunk like Stalin did. Other ideas would be 'reeducation camps' of the kind in Vietnam where western collaborators are starved and worked to death, or 'guest workers paradise' where a train transports you to Siberia to work on the Tran-Siberian pipline. Visitors would then get complimentery Euro's, to remind them of the skeletens of the dead who died to keep their homes warm.
Golly, sooo many other things come to mind....an ethnic cleasing wing of the Museum, showing Montagnards forced to marry Asians, numerous others lynched and shot..a whole Eastern Europe exhibit for that wing...with free bus trips right to the actuazl spots only a few years old!
I'm working on another masterpiece now called 'Obmamabomba'
Why thanks, SP. In truth it just flew off the keyboard, but I take little pride in that. Communism is hardly difficult to poke fun at. The only wonder is, that after millions of deaths, oppression on a scale that surpassed Hitlers, rank hypocrisy, the stifling of all human aspiration and the abject failure of pure centrally planned economies everywhere, some people can still be found who seem to want to repeat the disaster.
Capitalism has its faults to be sure but can anyone really maintain that the soulless hell of Communism was to be preferred in any respect!
...I remember the cold war days when, with the utmost civility, William Buckley would dismember some Bolshevik on PBS, leaving him looking like an ass. My favorite was the guy extolling the virtues of Chinese Marxism as he subtly reminded him that it took 85 people to feed each 100 of the overpadded automatons Mao called citizens, while he retreated to his palace and diddle 14 year olds, one after another, like he was in Bangkok instead of mainland China.
In other debates, he denuded countless liberals who poo poo'ed the conservative base's utter will, and success, to defeat communism and after doing it, tired to take credit for it themselves, like Carter has repeatedly done.
Castro, Kim and other so called 'communists' i.e. marxist monarchists, actually have millions in personal wealth, while they preach collective wealth to the masses. Separate health care, consumer access, rights, even separate money (cuba) defines the true reality of communism, far worse than any lopsidedness in the west.
Limbaugh, no matter what you may think of him, is undeniably correct in his opinion that the liberal elite loves communism because they envy it's ability to force its will upon its subjects. Afet all, one doe not have to care about the success of an economy if there is no voice to oppose them. Nonetheless, people like this current shepard we have in the not-so white house embraced Marxism in his youth and it still guides him today.
I've always been highly amused that a system like communism, directed supposedly at the attainment of some dubious and theoretical absolute equality, nevertheless always seems to lead directly to dictatorship and blatant leader-worship. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, and now Kim Jong Il, who I usually call 'Kim Kong Kill.' Even Ceaucescu; 'til they shot him!
And with Fidel and Kim getting a bit shaky who looks set to inherit? Castro's brother has already been installed. Kim is grooming his youngest son for the succession. So before too long the world will be able to look in wonder upon a third generation Marxist Monarch. Actually, 'King' does not even begin to describe these people. No British ruler since Magna Carta ever enjoyed such absolute, untrammelled power. Or even before, when back into Saxon times, the King was still bound by custom and Law. These people are more like some ancient potentates. Their sovereignty is a very personal affair and they rule largely by whim! They are 'God-Kings.'
A good parallel is Ptolemaic Egypt (The famous Cleopatra VII was the last ruler of the dynasty). Ptolemy I was 'Soter' (The Saviour). Ptolemy II; 'Philadelphus' (The Brotherly Loving). His son, Ptolemy III (surprise, surprise) was 'Euergetes' (The Benefactor or Prosperity-Bestowing). Cleo herself was 'Thea Neotera' (The New Goddess).
All sounds very, very familiar, doesn't it?
To move on, I fail to see how Carter can claim anything other than complete disaster. American prestige under him reached a postwar low. It was the Gipper who stood up to the Soviets. Assisted ably by Maggie, he checked them, forced them onto the back foot, contained them and encouraged their oppressed peoples until their rotten system collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions. All through the process, Leftist 'intellectuals' whined and gibbered about US and British 'aggression' and 'nuclear provocation' and 'failure to engage with Soviet concerns'. Why don't you ask the Poles, East Germans or Czechs? I used to say, wearing my 'Cruise On!' T shirt.
I always liked Reagan's response when asked why he did not do more to cultivate good relations with individual Soviet leaders. 'I'd like to' he replied, 'but they keep dying on me.'
Limbaugh has a point. Possibly somewhat overstated but there are some in 'the liberal elite' who are at least a tad nostalgic about Communism. The cuddly, idealistic, touchy-feely theoretical version of course. Some do 'envy it's ability to force its will upon its subjects' though they would not phrase it like that. I think the most that many of them aspire to is the creation of a social market economy in the USA. Some ordinary Americans would support that: And it does have its good side. Nevertheless, people need to be made aware of the downsides too. The high marginal tax rates, huge inefficient arrogant bureaucracy, misspent money and meddlesome, nannying governmental interference in peoples private lives that inevitably goes with it.
Obama is probably the most left wing president you've had. In fact, though, after the first month or two the reality of his responsibilities seems to have hit him. He made a rod for his own back with Gitmo, for example, but his practical policy is not too different from Bush's; apart from the accompanying rhetoric. One after another of Bush's measures have been reinstituted. Now I see the indefinite detention matter is back on the agenda too. Another one of Dubya's orders to be revived, this time, a tad ironically, supported by the Civil Liberties people on the grounds that a legislative solution would be harder to reverse later. Ooooh! Yet another thing that didn't seem to occur to them before, when they screamed their heads off at GW about it. Ah well, live and learn, live and learn, eh?
(Haven't seen Tonny here for some time, by the way. Pity. Now that, as I foresaw, indefinite detention without trial looks very much like what's going to happen, I'd LOVE to ask him about his 'stance anent the policy of the present US administration' today!)
Is using America and ONLY the parts of its capitalism just like it is using that part of communism that works for CHINA.
The key here is: U S I N G
We will continue to take advantage of and use America for as long as it suits us.
''We will continue to take advantage of and use America for as long as it suits us.''
Said the flea to the dog.
Sorry truebrit;I don't like to participate in propaganda wars,even if they are based on ignorance and being brainwashed (SP4) or you (being biased).
Your observations are correct but you very conveniently leave out all the stuff that gets in your way.You should perhaps start by analysing the conditions that existed in Russia and China before the revolutions annex civil wars that created these so called communist countries.In none of those countries there was a developed industry,none of the two had a middle class worth mentioning,an educated mass of people,a transport infrastructure ,electricity.With such poor prerequisites it is impossible to create a modern nation with mass production,a transport infrastructure,modern agriculture,education ,media etc.
Russia was completely bankrupted by the Tsar in the first world war,China was ravaged by warlords and the japanese occupation on top of that.You can compare their situation with some contemporary african counties .Nothing much good can come out of that,yet the Soviet Union managed to build an extensive industry in twenty years that managed to defeat Hitler .That was probably the only positive thing that can be said of Stalin.I would not call any country communist of socialist anywhere in the world .China has become a strange mixture of a free market society heavily regulated by a rigid government and a strict organized financial system.It's growth is spectacular indeed but I think it is a giant on clay feet,totally relying on investment from outside and export .
As for Cuba,compare it with it's neighbours like Haiti and Santo Domingo,that is more fair to it.it used to be ptivate property of the US mafia until it's proxy Batista was ousted by the cubans .It has a n excellent education system and medical infrastructure.Now compare that with it's neighbours in Central America .I's rather be cuban than haitian if I had to choose.
Now have a look at capitalism from a different angle:what is happening with this planet ?
It's natural resources are vanishing very quickly,pollution is hardly fought,carbon emissions and global warming are causing massive transformations in our ecosystem,impairing the future of our children.Now what is the answer of the corporate controlled media to all that ?Denial at first for more than 20 years.Do you really think global warming is just a hoax ,like SP4 ? Or perhaps do you simply think marker mechanisms hold an answer for this problem ?If so share it with the world ,we are still struggling to find answers to that.
Welcome back, Tonny.
'Your observations are correct but you very conveniently leave out all the stuff that gets in your way.'
Not maliciously or deliberately, Tonny. It was simply not germane to the point I was making. Of course I accept that Tsarist Russia or Nationalist China were hardly ideal jumping off points from which a modern, developed economy might reasonably be expected to evolve. (Still, have a look at the industrial development in pre-revolutionary Russia and you may be quite surprised. It was certainly a factor in German strategic planning before WWI.)
Nor, for that matter, was feudal Japan a 'good jumping off point', even after the Meiji restoration. Yet Japan today is a major power with a capitalist economy. South Korea seems to have done rather well, too, compared to it's northern neighbour. How much need I labour this line of reasoning?
I'm inclined to agree with your feet of clay remark about contemporary China, by the way. They may be becoming the workshop of our world but are still shackled by state direction of resources: and reliant upon the economic health and resultant continuing demand fluctuations in the west to maintain growth and amass currency reserves. Internally, their economy is still a bit too 'command' oriented, wouldn't you say? Imagine what they could do if they were able to take the brakes off, allow free capital flows, the development of a mature, autonomous tertiary sector, attract openly international investment into purely Chinese enterprises with a view to better exploiting their vast nascent domestic markets. The Keyword, Tonny, is 'causation.' Try placing 'Direction of' in front of it, and see what you come up with.
Oh, and as you're here, Tonny:
What, in light of recent developments is your current stance anent the present US administration?
I await your response, Monsieur, with bated breath.
Well then...was feudal Japan a 'good jumping off point', even after the Meiji restoration. Yet Japan today is a major power with a capitalist economy.Umphh,need I tell a heir of the british empire how Japan built it's industrial strength?Look on a map of the thirties from the previous century and look at the piece of cake Japan took out of China .It was an empire of it's own ,profiting from the chinese resources and slave labour to boost it's own aspirations .Considering the millions of casualties amongst the chinese population it built it's industrial power in a similar manner europeans did:colonization .After the second world war when it had to rebuild it' industry it profited from the fact that building a new industry from scratch it quickly had at it's disposal the newest machine tools and infrastructure (just as germany in fact );so very quickly the losers became the winners .One has to look at post WW2 England and Belgium to find out that the infrastructure inherited from pre war technology rapidly became obsolete .
As for the present administration in the USA,I'm not naive at all.THe real power is in the hands of corporate tycoons ,the choice between only two candidates already preselected after a fortune consuming campaign never allowed anybody that did not heavily profit from corporate funding to step into the arena ;until now that is .The campaign conducted by Obama is different as it was based on a grass root movement previously unknown in US politics .I guess the internet ha greatly contributed to that .It gave Obama the financial edge in this election over the GOP candidate .However Obama has to present his plans to the Congress and the Senate and that is a very different game .There the lobbies can fully play their games,a good indicator of which is the introduction of modern health care in the USA .serious polls indicate 72 percent of the population want modern single payer health care such as we enjoy in Europe .The present private health care in the USA is the most expensive system in the entire world,it is a burden to every american,the reason for which many of them have lost their house in the crisis .
However many in congress receive campaign contributions from the insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies and stall all progress to modern healthcare,even in the democratic party .Similar mechanisms play in the armament industry too.The big industries involved in armament have wilfully dispersed their plants over every possible state in order to gain support fom every congressman ,waving in their faces eventual lay- off s in their constituency in case the spending gets opposed .
I think it is a near impossible task for any single individual to reform the political landscape .The GOP will not lift a finger to avoid bankrupting the country,their panacea to all problems is reducing taxes,even in a bankrupt state as California that is their only medication . Considering the incredible budget deficit which also means there is very little to invest in a reconversion it is even harder of the democrats to modernize the USA .
What is needed is a reconversion from the armament industry in order to adapt the US society to the challenges of energy production based in low carbon emission.Now,they have the infrastructure,they have the tools and the technology ,the government doesn't have the money to fund it after the catastrophic depletion the state finances by Bush and Cheney to finance the invasion of Iraq.Sooner or later the population will understand that weapons are not consumer goods and producing about 50 percent of the world's arsenal does nothing to improve their comfort,on the contrary .
It will take at least ten years to get eventual new investments to produce tangible results in those domains .Can one single figure accomplish that ?Of course not,the GOP ,wavering democrats the media and the lobbies combined are probably stronger .
As for the industry in Russia previous to 1917 it was entirely concentrated in Petrograd.the working class in Russia ,if one considers those that work in the industry,represented only something like 2.5 percent of the total population .With such small demogaphic footprint the october revolution was doomed from the start .The main reason why such a large part of the population was gained to the bolshevik cause was simply their promess to end the war immediately,at any cost ,which they did indeed.Perhaps Germany has some interest in Russia but it was the Tsar who declared war on Germany ,not the opposite,let us not forget that .
or overlook, or miss entirely, is the fact that there have been no true communist states, ever. If one takes an unbiased, fair look at the systems employed by these countries, it was, in fact, state run capitalism. The revolution under Lenin and Trotsky was hijacked by people like Stalin. All of the states allegedly to be communist are nothing more than personal capitalist fiefdoms. Sort of sounds like america under Bush and Cheney. What ever happened to the continuing american revolution? It died a long time ago under the economic enslavement guise of unbridled capitalistic greed.
“Umphh,need I tell a heir of the british empire how Japan built it's industrial strength?”
No, Tonny. You need not. But perhaps an heir of the British Empire (I like that) can put you straight about how Japan built hers. By the time the militarists took over in Japan she already had a developed economy, a considerable, and growing industrial base, and a mature tertiary sector. Look up the Zaibatsu, Tonny. She achieved this by trade, amassing capital, importing experts from the west, reforming her education system and investing heavily in science and technology; remodelling her entire society from scratch, in fact, along western liberal capitalist lines.
The last ship built abroad for the IJN was launched in 1912, and I should know because it was built in the town I hail from! All subsequent design and construction was entirely Japanese. In less than 50 years they’d gone from junks to super-dreadnoughts. Are you aware of the level of technological sophistication, industrial organisation, secondary and other support services, machine tool industrial capabilities, infrastructure, political stability and financial muscle implied?
Japan did not go looking for an Empire to build her economy. It was her economic and industrial sophistication that allowed her to go and look for an Empire. She was after cheap primary factor inputs. Natural resources to feed her already existent industries. Direction of causation again, Tonny.
“After the second world war when it had to rebuild it' industry it profited from the fact that building a new industry from scratch it quickly had at it's disposal the newest machine tools and infrastructure (just as germany in fact );so very quickly the losers became the winners”
True: And the immense US aid packages helped more than a little, too.
“One has to look at post WW2 England and Belgium to find out that the infrastructure inherited from pre war technology rapidly became obsolete.”
Right again: And there were other factors as well. The perhaps premature creation of large welfare states, overt government interference in the private sector, high marginal tax rates discouraging investment and entrepreneurial endeavour, and in the UK at least –the terrible decline in educational standards that accompanied comprehensivisation.
”THe real power is in the hands of corporate tycoons”
(OOOOOH!)
followed by the somewhat contradictory;
“The campaign conducted by Obama is different as it was based on a grass root movement previously unknown in US politics .I guess the internet ha greatly contributed to that .It gave Obama the financial edge in this election over the GOP candidate.”
Are you seriously suggesting that Barack is not part of the US political class, has no corporate backers of his own, no lobbyists, no slick and professional party machine, and owes his election solely to millions of enlightened, humble but faithful supporters contributing a dollar or two over the net to bolster the holy cause of social righteousness?
How very American of you! Sounds like the plot of one of the “Rocky” movies to me.
“However Obama has to present his plans to the Congress and the Senate and that is a very different game”
Boo Hoo Hoo! So the holy lamb of god is being stymied in his selfless efforts to save Yankdom for social justice by the evil Pharisees of corporate vested interest?
“serious polls indicate 72 percent of the population want modern single payer health care such as we enjoy in Europe”
Of course they do. Now ask them if they want to pay double the income tax, and have thresholds lowered so an extra 10 million or so of them become eligible to be charged it too. Wot? No 72% majority for that? How surprising!
Actually, I’d agree that single payment or NHS type systems can deliver as good a result for less cost, but health finance is a bottomless pit under any regime and we have our own troubles with supporting it in Europe as well.
Oh, and Tonny, people in Europe, certainly in the UK have lost their houses too. They did so for much the same reason as their American counterparts. They borrowed too much, lost their jobs or had hours cut, couldn’t keep up the payments and fell victim to repossession orders. You may recall that the present recession started with a crisis in the US sub-prime mortgage industry. This derived from Fannie and Freddie being leaned on by the Clinton administration to advance credit to bad risks in a drive for affordable housing.
Well! Holy negative equity traps, boy wonder!!
“What is needed is a reconversion….etc”
I am speechless with admiration at how you manage to work Global Warming into almost any debate, but do you really want the Yanks to curtail their military spending that much? After all, they currently protect you for free whilst you yap and preach at them about their reprehensible imperialism. Surely, if continental Europe was forced to spend more than about 1.5% of GDP to do the job for itself, the world would come to an end amidst much wailing and gnashing of teeth about such disgraceful Anglo-Saxon irresponsibility.
“catastrophic depletion the state finances by Bush and Cheney to finance the invasion of Iraq.”
True, but hasn’t the sainted Barack recently made yet another, additional $150 billion + appropriation for Iraq and Afghanistan? Just thought I’d mention it.
I’ll get back to you on Russia, comrade. When I’ve checked my sources. As for Russian entry into WWI, it was largely dictated by the Alliance system that pertained at the time, and a military / political infrastructure and viewpoint that made war an almost inevitable corollary to mobilisation. As far as I recall, the sequence of events was Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia; Russia ordered general mobilisation; Germany demanded that Russia halt her mobilisation, Russia refused, Germany declared war on Russia and ordered her own general mobilisation, Britain communicated to Germany her willingness to stay neutral if Germany refrained from attacking France, Germany demanded a promise of neutrality from France, France refused to give one, Germany declared war on France, Germany demanded that her troops be allowed to pass through Belgium, Belgium refused, Britain demanded that Germany respect Belgian neutrality, Germany refused and invaded Belgium, Britain declared war on Germany, Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia and a week later, France and Britain declared war on Austria Hungary.
War by timetable, as A.J.P. Taylor termed it.
Toodle pip!
Oh, and to the next poster. Why do you suppose that despite twenty or thirty separate attempts to bring the socialist pardise to earth in various parts of the world it always ends up with Gulags and repression? Western leftists always whine on about a 'Stalin' figure or say the glorious revolution was hijacked or something. In EVERY case?
The truth is far simpler and would be recognised easily by anyone used to experimental science. If you try to do something on twenty different occasions and despite the fact that you have a guidebook and stipulate your objectives in advance, you always seem to end up in an entirely different place, and at that, the same place, every time: Then what does that suggest to you?
Starter for ten?
All this starts to get ramifications all over every history and economical book.So let's concentrate on the important issues,the ones that define the future ,not the past.regarding Obama:I never said there is no corporate backing behind him,nowhere at all.Of course there are.I have no clues yat about which ones so I have to make an educated guess that it is the medium to small enterprises that have a potential of profiting from modern technologies involved in fighting climate change .
Let's name a few losers to start with:the high tech armament industry,aircraft industry,insurance industry,pharmaceuticals perhaps too,investment banks eventually.That is not a small fish,considering the USA spends half of the entire world's budget on armament .The winners are still hiding in the shadow somewhere,probably much smaller entities concentrating on products required to implement the new rules that are to curb the worst effects of global warming .
Obama's victory was an accident of history though,I don't have the figures at hand,anybody can find them quite easily ,but it is a well established fact that the GOP always benefits more from the input of corporate gifts in a political campaign,as well as media goodwill.For every 2 dollars they give to the GOP,they give a dollar to the Dems .
If one analyses the latest presidential election however the amounts of corporate goodwill towards the GOP was largely surpassed by grass root campaign contributions benefiting Obama .His vow to implement euèropean style health care has been an important rallying factor for community based organisations to boost his campaign.The internet was alive and buzzing with these new phenomena .Whatever the traditional media like TV stations and the newspapers wanted to feed the public,the focus was on the internet,mouth to mouth did the rest in urban areas.It was an efficient campaign.
You ask me if US citizens are willing to pay more taxes in order to implement modern health care.Stranger question that is:US health care is already the most expensive in the world ,without delivering much more than head aches to it's recipients .It is much more bureaucratic than european health care too.There are more pen pushers than nurses in the USA taking care of patients,or should I say taking care of the insurer's interests .Have you got any idea about the paperwork doctors have to perform to fill in the papers after or even before serving their patients ?I guess not but believe me ,in Europe doctors are much better off,they don't need secretaries to fill in forms,at least not in Belgium .
So we are much cheaper,more sophisticated,less bureaucratic compared to the USA.And by the way;yes most people polled in the USA are willing to pay more taxes to protect their health .Wouldn't you ?
You probably have no idea how lucky you are to live in Europe ,I guess you are a bit ignorant on matters pertaining to private health care .Just consider that the insurances companies are out there to make maximum profits:that means raking in as much as possible whilst doling out the absolute minimum.They draft the contracts and believe me,if you are not an astute lawyer you always end up in big problems when you are in the unfortunate position of having to rely on these crooks .
Believe me ,most americans want our health care,but no europeans want US health care.
Going back to Obama:him being a figure that arose out of community work,he knows the situation of the poorest part of US population,life without a safety net is much harder when you are poor and out in the USA than in Europe.He is an idealist with brains and respect for the intellect of his own population,hat is no joke .He knows the health carte situation both in Europe and the USA well,certainly much better than you truebrit,I'm certain of that.Perhaps you should take some time to look a bit deeper into US health care,there are lots of internet sites on which US citizens debate on health care reform.
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