Middle East News
Aug 4, 2008, 9:04 GMT
Initial agreement reached on withdrawal of US troops from Iraq
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Older Talkback
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“So the issue is superfluous.”
What is the cost of saying you are going to do something and not doing it?
“I believe the accurate number is close to 1 million and I can point to studies that support this number”
I believe the truth is somewhere between the Iraqi Health Ministry survey for World Health Organization and the iraqbodycount.org figures. I also believe that many of those deaths were caused by Iraqi on Iraqi violence and by foreign islamist terrorists.
“They are scientific studies who's methods can be scrutinized and evaluated and reproduced.”
Yes, and the sampling rate has been evaluated by many to be completely scatter shot and hopelessly skewed to produce inflated figures. Right now there have been between 86,456 – 94,328 Iraqi deaths from violence since the invasion. (That’s violence from coalition actions or terrorists blowing up playgrounds, etc.) That is documented, not speculation. As are the 400,000 people Saddam put in to mass graves. As are the million he killed in the 2 wars he started.
“Then you say “I have seen people like you openly routing for more Americans to die.” I call Bullshit..””
A fellow by the name of PB used to do that here routinely. Another one who called himself Michael Reinlet used to celebrate the deaths of Americans here because he believed that it would bring the “evil empire” to it’s knees. A quick look through google will verify it.
“Who are people like me and how come I haven’t seen anyone in the states hoping that US soldiers die”
Go to: www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame
“I got out of the Army in 2002 but I have good friends in Iraq (you know, people like me) who, I can promise you, are not hoping to die.”
Which army did you get out of? Ours or the Mahdi?
If that is true then I was mistaken. There have been people here who have rooted for our defeat and if you are not one of them I apologize.
“It is the ignorant like yourself who don’t care to count the human cost of foolish misadventures like this one.”
No. Not true. I do not believe in lying in order to sell a point of view. There are reasons that the Lancet study has wildly inflated the figures and they have nothing to do with “truth” which is what you started out saying that you had a lock on. There are reasons that Steiglitz inflated his figures to the obviously absurd and they do not have anything to do with truth. If you were in the Army you know the incredible pains that Americans go to in order to preserve innocent life. To accept uncritically, the absolute over the top worst case scenario that was deliberately crafted in order to indict the American Soldiers and civilian leadership is breaking faith with your countrymen, your service and your pledge to seek the truth.
“You see some countries believe that there natural resource wealth should be used to enrich the lives of all its citizens and not just the corrupt government and oil companies. That is why Chavez kicked out Exxon and Conoco Phillips and why Iran kicked out BP.”
No. They did so, so that they could have the whole pie instead of taking the slice that they agreed to. In doing so they have not enriched the lives of their citizens, they have bought weapons and enriched the lives of their plutocracy/theocracy. They have taken the research, labor and know-how of others and, when their work has started to pay dividends they have nationalized it. They have also mismanaged the process and cost their people far more then they would have by honoring their commitments and just taxing the businesses at the rate they said they would.
“he obvious cause and solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.”
The obvious cause of the conflict are the teachings of Mohammad which divide the world in to the infidel and the believer.
“These things are not seen as a symptom of the illegal…”
Who says it is “illegal”? Did the non muslim world have no problems with the muslim world before the existence of Israel?
“Just because you don’t like what authors like Morris, Carter, Hart, and Chomsky say about the historical record doesn’t make it any less a fact.”
You forgot Fisk and Johnson, and no what they write is not “fact”. It is in some cases deliberate misinformation and in some outright bigotry that isn’t even cloaked as reason. The historical record is the historical record, their manipulation of it is not “fact”.
“The settlements are illegal under international law. The occupation is illegal under international law”
What part of “international law?” Is it the same “international law” that said the genocides in Rwanda, the Congo and the Sudan can’t be stopped by force? This international law that gets blithely tossed around without ever citing the clause or section in this international law book has been used to excuse some of the greatest atrocities in the modern era. If you are a seeker of truth you need to acknowledge that law divorced from justice is the definition of tyranny and that using this imaginary “law” to legitimize a crime essentially renders the law null and void. This “international law” has been a lousy substitute for right and wrong. That said, I challenge you to show me where it is “illegal” under international law for Israel to be occupying or at this point annexing the west bank.
“Just because you in your infinite wisdom believe that Israel should be able to keep all the territory it conquered in the 67 war it started doesn’t make it so.”
Wis going to be done to sort it out. Poisoning your children to drive the Israelis in to the sea? I have been to Israel and have worked with some of the IAF. Those cats aren’t going anywhere. Trust me on this. All that the “Palestinians” have done is lock themselves in to perpetual misery in order to get their all-important revenge. Is living in rubble for generations victory? That seems to be their plan.
Come on Buddy,
I ask you for one thing, just one thing and you ignore my heartfelt plea. It is going to take more than a few comments from you to unindoctrinate me so if you could please refer me to some resources that will head me in the right direction. Give me something, an author, a book, a website, anything. I hear what you're saying and its almost making sense. Where can I get more info?
“Do me a favor and recommend a book to me that most closely mirrors your personal views on the causes for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.”
My personal views have come from observation, however as a reference which is long but objective I would look through the 'The Israel-Arab Reader' by Walter Laqueur. I would also recommend 'Understanding anti Americanism' by Paul Hollander as a way to get a feeling for how the truth can be skewed by people seeing what they want to see. If you are looking for the obverse of the coin from Chomsky try The Truth About Muhammad by Robert Spencer. (Chomsky really is a manipulative jerk)
www.123exp-government.com/t/03771145846
“Have you read their books?”
Yes on Hart, Chomsky no on Carter. Ill give Morris a look but I have stuff I have to get through before.
From his wiki biography:
Morris was seen as an Israeli sympathizer of the Palestinian cause, and his work was cited and praised by pro-Arab writers[1]. Since the outbreak of the Second Intifada Morris has increased his criticism of the Arab leadership, and has criticized 'pro-Arab propagandists' for highlighting certain parts of his work while ignoring others. He has stated that the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the collapse of the 2000 Camp David peace talks were products of Palestinian-Arab decisions.[2]
Morris was once considered a representative of the radical left; he was accused of being an 'Israel hater' and was boycotted by the Israeli academic establishment. But his disillusionment with the peace process has caused him to increasingly make statements commonly associated with the right-wing.[18]
According to The Economist: 'Mr Morris also said, in an interview that stunned his supporters, that Israel was justified in uprooting the Palestinian 'fifth column' once the Arabs had attacked the infant state, and that the number executed or massacred—some 800, on his reckoning—was 'peanuts' compared with, say, the massacres in Bosnia in the 1990s.'[19] On the subject of Israel's Arab citizens, Morris has stated: “The Israeli Arabs are a time bomb. Their slide into complete Palestinization has made them an emissary of the enemy that is among us. They are a potential fifth column. In both demographic and security terms they are liable to undermine the state. So that if Israel again finds itself in a situation of existential threat, as in 1948, it may be forced to act as it did then.”
You see… People are seeing in it what they want to see.
' I confess and relent. '
Congratulations. Even if you were being tongue and cheek you managed to write the very last thing I ever expected to see someone say in the internet. You must have studied Judo.
'I ask you for one thing, just one thing and you ignore my heartfelt plea.'
Jeez, I had to walk to the bookcase to get the authors names.
A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict by Mark A. Tessler might also be a good overview but it stops before Oslo which failed because Arafat couldn't say yes to peace and maintain power. I am deliberately giving you overviews because it is important to understand what has happened without someone else framing it for you in a way that promotes their conclusions. I would recommend you get your passport and go to Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to see if they are the grasping monsters that they are made out to be here and by some of your authors of choice.
' United States deliberately chose to destroy Iraq,'
We didn't chose to 'destroy' Iraq. Indeed, Saddam did a pretty good job of that himself.
''terrorist magnet and killing field''
So terrorists don't have the free will not to be terrorists? Not that you care, but I saw these monsters fly aircraft full of people in to buildings full of people. Had you had the same happen in your city you might not be such a sanctimonious idiot. Of course, if it had you would be nagging us to do something about it wouldn't you?
Buddy,
It is frustrating trying to exchange ideas and beliefs via the internet. It is time consuming and inefficient. Every point you bring up, makes me want to write a page long rebuttal. Unfortunately, I don’t have that kind of free time. That is one of the reasons I asked for some references, so I can peruse them at my leisure. In all honesty, you have not raised any arguments or proffered any points of view that I have not already considered and found to be lacking. Now, I know that sounds like a sweepingly arrogant generalization but it is the truth. I take exception to nearly everything you say but unfortunately I don’t have the time or energy to go through point by point. Rest assured however, I am anxious to evaluate the sources that you have suggested to me. I am curious as to what could cause someone to get things so wrong. I want to understand this phenomenon.
Like you, my opinions and beliefs have been formed primarily through observation. I have read a few books on topics which interest me and I am constantly reading essays and articles on current events. I don’t believe that there are deliberate falsehoods in the books that I suggested you read. Nor do I believe that they were written to mislead or obfuscate. Let’s take Alan Hart’s most recent book that you scoff at as ripe with misleading propagandistic falsehood and claim to have read. I have read both volumes (over 1,000 pages, have them right in front of me) and was pretty much sold on his premise and conclusion. If you have indeed read his book and can readily demonstrate deliberate falsehoods in this long historical narrative, I would greatly appreciate you sharing them with me. I am open to the fact that perhaps Hart is a charlatan that makes up facts out of thin air. If you are not interested in indulging me, I understand and I give you the last word.
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