Middle East News
Mar 25, 2007, 15:11 GMT
Iran says all British detainees in good health (Roundup)
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Older Talkback
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'Israel has had an atomic bomb since the ‘70s and Iran is still there, despite more or less constant threats and provocations, including outright attacks.'
Again, my sardonic comment was intended to address the strategic and ‘ethical’ implications of the general pre-emptive strike approach to things. Mind you, there is no escaping the futility of trying to pacify the middle east, externally, by main force, and CERTAINLY not by a unilateral, partisan cadre.
”Oh yeah… The Christian right is enamored with “holy war” to destroy “secular, monarchic or democratic enemies & rivals for power”… that is why you see so many Christians flying aircraft full of people into buildings full of people… Oh wait no, you see them having bake sales and annoying people with lectures… not quite the same thing… “
Actually, I have been frequently amazed by the apocalyptic worldview of so many Christian Right-wingers when discussing international politics – A prevailing (if not universal) view holds that not only is this the apocalypse, but that it really doesn’t matter how widely these conflicts proliferate, what level of collateral casualties ensue, or what the end result is, as long as ‘Jesus knows which side I’m on’, etc etc etc….
Which is of course the very same basic worldview and of the most devout among Jihaddists.
The fact that that American religious fanatics behave differently than Arab religious fanatics is more a cultural difference than a religious (or psychological) one...Cheers for American culture!
In fact, the whole invocation (on either side) of religious benediction in these conflicts gives me the creeps.
'Regardless, that is what is in their charter. Even if that is the case, does that make it OK? '
(Shrug) The issue was the interpretation of Iranian political intent. The idea that Hizbollah are ‘agents’ of Iranian foreign policy is inaccurate.
Their relationship to Iran is roughly equivalent to that of Bin Laden’s Mujahaddin to cold war America: their agenda is politically congenial enough to make them supportable in various direct and indirect ways, but Hizbollah’s victories are of limited value in the greater context of Iranian ambitions.
As you said:
'Not that I buy your argument but would it be ok for them to control “just” the Middle East? (Including Israel?)'
Iran isn’t even ethnically or culturally an Arab country; and there is simply no way that the various democracies, constitutional monarchies or Sunni religious elites all over the region would ever willingly cede their various domains to Shia Iran.
The only way Iran might conceivably be able to make any headway toward such a preposterous goal would be if the citizens of the middle east would, en masse, decide to overthrow their isolationist domestic governments in a united wave of reactionary Pan-Islamic fervour, regardless of any rational secular interest or nationalistic sentiments they might normally harbour.
Which is of course PRECISELY the strategic objective of Al Qaeda’s wahhibists – to provoke western excesses into creating a far reaching regional backlash which will end with the establishment of a unified, Islamic theocracy (though even then, they would never allow it to be Shia in leadership, which lets Iran out).
So far their plan has been only partially successful.
The best Iran could hope to achieve with nuclear weapons would be an isolated attack on Israel or possibly American interests in Iraq, which as devastating as they would be for the recipients (assuming it even succeeded), would pale into insignificance along side the massive Israeli and/or American response, rendering the move entirely useless.
They would only get the one chance.
Ahmadinejad knows this as well as his general staff and the educated two-thirds of his citizens do; therefore he is in a position to gain favour by talking tough, which he has done.
But he is also in the process of learning what the cold war superpowers learned, and appear to be unlearnng now – Nuclear weapons are much more useful as a deterrent and political bargaining gambit than as a practical military asset.
As long as he talks tough but stays conventional, he gets a chip in the big game, since only an idiot attacks a nuclear power directly, with conventional weapons.
”Apologize for Hezbollah much? They have conducted operations in South America and outside of traditional Shiite areas…”
Right, but their targets are (unlike Pan-Islamists) related to regional objectives.
The distinction isn't ethical, but strategic.
They are certainly learning from Al Qaeda’s example, though – Terrorism can enable isolated fringe groups to get worldwide forces to help them do the big things that they would never be able to do by themselves, even after years of trying locally.
'I have traveled through the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar, Jordan, Kuwait and Egypt. I have also been to Morocco and Turkey. Trust me, they are a minority BUT there are more then enough people out there who hate non-Muslims simply because they are non-Muslims to keep the Jihad going indefinitely. It has nothing to do with what we have done or are going to do, it has to do with the way they have been raised.'
For the most part, I agree with you, in the case of the militants. I too have visited the region. (-:
The real battlefield in fighting terrorism is always the tug of war for the support of the moderate rank and file. It’s about which side the population jumps in the end, whatever the nature of the issues, or the cultures involved. History decrees it.
“Actually you didn’t ‘dissect’ my points; in most cases, where I – regardless of the validity or lack thereof in my points – have explored the issues,”
I have gone through your posts and countered your arguments point by point. I have noticed that when you see that you are in a dead end the argument simply disappears from the rebuttal. That’s fine…In a few months you should run out of things to say. In terms of “exploring issues” as I have indicated, I do not think you are going to allow yourself to see our motivations as legitimate, however the jury is still out on that.
“even going so far as to bring my nationality into it.”
AAAh ha! I knew it! I have a house and family in the Maritimes, been going up there all my life. Tell me… do you really think that there hasn’t been a current of anti-Americanism up there that your government and media use to manipulate the public?
“America is just a country, like any other. No more, no less.”
So America = Canada = Somalia = Sudan = North Korea = Switzerland = Iran….
America and Canada practice forced genital mutilation of women and gang rape as a punishment for “honor crimes”… We can’t feed our populations and are on the receiving end of massive amounts of charity, which we use to buy Kalashnikov assault rifles… We have tribes who slaughter each other over the latest translation of the “holy book” and whether or not chapter 7 Sura 9 says “either” or “or”…
To say that all countries are equal is to say that all ideas are equal. Are all ideas equal? …Don’t run away from that question… Are all ideas equal?
This is at the very core of your argument. You have stated it over and over. It is OK for Iran to have an atomic bomb because the USA has one and all countries are equal. So again, Are all constitutions equal? Are all ideas equal… Or even equally effective? Is a totalitarian religious theocracy equal to a representative democracy with universal suffrage? Is Canada equal to the Sudan?
“and dodging the coconuts”
If Life sends you coconuts make Pina Coladas.
“I see no merit in refusing to consider the CONTEXT of her enemies’ contribution to the same issue.”
The thing is you are seeing them through rose-colored glasses… Desperately trying to draw a moral equivalence argument from the situation.
“Nor do I blame her for Iran’s detainment of the British sailors. Britain’s involvement in the war was entirely voluntary.”
So you blame the British because Iran kidnapped British soldiers… You see, the obvious point here is that you are steadfastly refusing to hold the Iranians accountable for their actions. IT WAS THE IRANIANS WHO KIDNAPPED THE BRITISH SOLDIERS…
Again, you are desperately trying to deflect responsibility away from those who have taken the action that they have taken.
Star and Stripes ...
it is an awful thing to realize that ones country has taken one for a ride. That ones love of country was used to wipe the ruling cliques bathroom seat. I see your bluster for what it is .. I can also remember the perverse pride in the British Empire .. an Empire greater than that of Imperial Rome .. it was an Empire that had been carved out with great loss of life on the part of the lower classes of my land .. whilst the Commissioned officers dined from fine silver .. the Private Soldier ate the mud .. the blood .. the sword and hot lead.
At no time in history has the common man been able to communicate with his fellow man daily on a global scale .. I have many American friends and one gets it straight from the horses mouth as it were .. unfiltered .. untwisted by the controllers propaganda .. Here follows a short extract taken from an American book ..
==================================================
WAR IS A RACKET
by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient:
Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC [Retired]
lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
here is a small extract from chapter two ...
'Boys with a normal viewpoint were taken out of the fields and offices and factories and classrooms and put into the ranks. There they were remolded; they were made over; they were made to 'about face'; to regard murder as the order of the day. They were put shoulder to shoulder and, through mass psychology, they were entirely changed. We used them for a couple of years and trained them to think nothing at all of killing or of being killed.
Then, suddenly, we discharged them and told them to make another 'about face' ! This time they had to do their own readjustment, sans [without] mass psychology, sans officers' aid and advice and sans nation-wide propaganda. We didn't need them any more. So we scattered them about without any 'three-minute' or 'Liberty Loan' speeches or parades. Many, too many, of these fine young boys are eventually destroyed, mentally, because they could not make that final 'about face' alone'.
==================================================
The sad and sorry story of the Walter Reed Military Hospital was also repeated in Britain but not on the same scale. There is a great gap between love of country and 'Patriotism' .. one is blind .. my country right or wrong .. the pawns in the rich mans game.
Love of country demands that one be alert for those who would usurp the peoples hard won freedoms because the nursing of vipers to ones breast ensures a never ending indentured slavery .. rivers of blood .. the broken hearts .. bones down a hole in a foreign field.
Red blooded American ass eh! So long as its female then thats Ok .. judging by the volume of my spam mail .. a lot of the males of the Americanus Boobus have to pop Viagra with the 12 ounce steak .. otherwise they cannot get it up.
I also hear that Commissar Jerkoff the head of Homeland Security holds dual nationality .. American/Israeli .. what a disgraceful state of affairs. Over 50% of the American peoples are now awake and when the shit hits the fan .. he will flee to Israel to avoid retribution for the planned Katrina debacle .. just so long as 'Martial Law' is not imposed first .. and that is on the cards .. stand by for another false flag attack on American soil .. coz ya aint seen nothing yet. Remember the arrest of the Israeli 'High Fivers' the day the WTC went down .. what false flag operation is it to be this time?
As for those despicable bastards in my own Government and the infiltration of the House of Lords by Zionist Jews .. who bought the peerages from the traitor Blair .. He is under police investigation for that piece of treason ..
So back to those 15 British military personnel who are now incarcerated in Iran .. just expendable pawns in the war racket .. I cannot even imagine the depth of fear engendered in the hearts of family and loved ones for their captured warrior .. when all is said and done they are my comrades in arms .. they are my countrymen who thought they were serving their Country and their Queen .. Smedley Butler is quite right .. he also said ..
'I was no more than a high class hitman for American Corporations' .. he should know ..
Wake up you stupid little twerp.
That's it? After all I gave you to scrutinize? (-:
'Which is why outpourings of sympathy were quite rightly extended from all of Europe – they know exactly how it feels. '
Oh yeah? You should watch the BBC's programming the next day, there were plenty calling it 'payback'.
The European union has been sold in Europe by taking advantage of latent anti-Americanism. (Sign your sovereignty over to us so we can be a counterweight to the savages..You might be familiar with those kind of arguments from the Jean Cretchien/Paul Martin days when they ran against us rather then Harper.)
Go read the book 'understanding anti-Americanism' by Hollander. Other countries cultivate it and use it as a control mechanism. Some of the weak minded get carried away and use it to justify their bigotry, as you see on these boards.
Personally, having seen the societies that they insist that we should be emulating the whole thing is a bit of a joke to me.
“I have gone through your posts and countered your arguments point by point”.
The accuracy of that statement will have to be judged by the casual observer at their whim, looking back through our previous posts. (I have no interest in reposting the whole thread to examine your debating technique). (-:
“In terms of “exploring issues” as I have indicated, I do not think you are going to allow yourself to see our motivations as legitimate…”
Please read my posts before responding to them.
”AAAh ha! I knew it! I have a house and family in the Maritimes, been going up there all my life. Tell me… do you really think that there hasn’t been a current of anti-Americanism up there that your government and media use to manipulate the public?”
Case in point:
NONE of this has any relevant place in our debate, except as part of some arcane strategy for ‘discrediting me’, rather addressing my arguments in good faith. It’s basically an obstruction.
“America is just a country, like any other. No more, no less.”
So America = Canada = Somalia = Sudan = North Korea = Switzerland = Iran….
America is a tribal designation for a group of people under a tacitly united federal mandate.
Individual for individual, an American life is no more or less valuable than any other ethnical individual; correspondingly, America has no ‘inherent’, empirical value or rights of action beyond that of any other nation; certainly under any law which claims to represent a global democracy.
“America and Canada practice forced genital mutilation of women and gang rape as a punishment for “honor crimes”… We can’t feed our populations and are on the receiving end of massive amounts of charity, which we use to buy Kalashnikov assault rifles… We have tribes who slaughter each other over the latest translation of the “holy book” and whether or not chapter 7 Sura 9 says “either” or “or”…
”To say that all countries are equal is to say that all ideas are equal.”
Nope. It’s far more complex than that. Contrary to the propaganda, America isn’t the ‘full expression’ of some lofty ideal, flawlessly executed and inherently functional any more than her successors will be. America is a nation, a political construct like all nations, run by politicians.
And like all nations, the mechanics of America and her component institutions frequently diverge from the ‘ideas’ she was founded on. (As so many Americans keep pointing out).
Are all ideas equal? …Don’t run away from that question… Are all ideas equal?
(-: No need to run.
Different ideas have different effects when implemented. The reasons WHY there is a lack of universal consensus on ideology is because perceptions will always differ and priorities are always subjective…Which is why visceral, reactionary bombast is so corrosive to constructive debate.
”This is at the very core of your argument. You have stated it over and over. It is OK for Iran to have an atomic bomb because the USA has one and all countries are equal”.
Please read my posts before responding to them. For the last time; what I said was that a universal law should be implemented equally in order to be credible. I never implied that the results would be desireable, or ‘O.K’.
“So again, Are all constitutions equal? Are all ideas equal… Or even equally effective? “
Those are two different questions. Effective is also a matter of subjective interpretation.
If one considers the Jews to be main problem facing the world (which I personally do not), and if one values military force and internal security as a top priority in government, then the Nazis are probably the right government for you – they were highly effective in those areas.
If on the other hand you are a libertarian who despises government in general and feels no need for government interference or arbitration of local disputes, then Greenland or Boer Africa are probably more appropriate.
If you enjoy violence and success through personal brutality and main force, and see no value in egalitarian oversight or in protecting the weak, there are any number of anarchic African or South American republics which you might do very well in – As well as a number of North American slums as well.
Is a totalitarian religious theocracy equal to a representative democracy with universal suffrage?
(Shrug) Not to me. But then, if I were a cleric or sufficiently doctrinated in militant Islamic orthodoxy, my answer might be different.
We’re sharing one even now.
”The thing is you are seeing them through rose-colored glasses… Desperately trying to draw a moral equivalence argument from the situation.”
I could say the same thing about your reflexive defence of America/Britain, but I won’t, because it’s an unprovable assumption, and entirely beside the point.
As for rose-coloured glasses, I am well aware of the dangers and vices associated regimes like the current one in Iran, but I stand by my preference to refine the acuity of that awareness through attention to detail.
I certainly feel absolutely no need for ‘desperation’ here, of all things…
To Blue Lady-Meaning no disrespect, but holy hannah! Don't you think you have said enough? I don't know about others, but I sure would like to see a few others on this site, with thier views on the subject line. Your opinions and views are ok, but, they are a bit long winded. Give a little space and consideration to others who may have what they think important to say, without you hogging it up. Don't take it wrong maam, I just thought I would bring this to your attention. Thanks.
No problem at all, and my apologies - These are just complex issues that rather defy simplistic analysis.
The reason I post them in modules is because the posts I have been responding to are themselves quite long. I am certainly not preventing anyone else from posting, at their convenience. (-:
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