Middle East News
Mar 25, 2007, 15:11 GMT
Iran says all British detainees in good health (Roundup)
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Older Talkback
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'Listen to what Israel's ambassador said at the U.N. Human Rights Commission on the 23rd.'
Yes sane person... Here is the link 'Ivor'
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhWgZu6tcZU
take a look ..
and the point of that rant is ??
Israel ignores any directive from the UN that seeks to censure 'it' I posted the link to Ilan Pappes talk of the blatant ethnic cleansing by Israel in 1948.
It has been non stop for these monsters that control Palestine. Many of the original Palestinians have fled .. those that had to stay have been herded into the Zionist Gulags of Gaza and the West Bank enclaves.
The heroic IDF .. the kiddie killers of Israel .. daily demonstrate depths of depravity that is hard to understand. But read Ilan Pappes words one will see that there is no cess pit to which they will plunge in pursuit of Middle Eastern Hegemoney.
Israeli false flag operations are well documented. The Israeli authority lies as they try to cover their bloody footprints is also well covered. Remember the USS Liberty .. Remember the King David Hotel .. well Israel is bust and many Americans question why they should financially support this thuggish regime.
I suppose all those Torah Jews including some distinguished elder Rabbi's that have denounced Israel are self hating Jews ??
HEY, IVOR! Why don't you and all of those who think like you, you know, the little people with little brains, climb up my good solid American ladder, and kiss my Red blooded all American ass! You are probably one of those poor bastards that have nothing going for himself but hate for America. 'Get a life'! Your anti-American, anti-Jew, anti-democracy rhetoric, is anti-productive, and definately anti-intelligent! So, ... I have another suggestion for you. Just calm down, and take a deep breath and hold it, and hold it, and hold it, and hold it, and hold it. I was going to suggest that you stick your head up your ass, but, I see that you have already done that. Do you get the feeling that you are unliked? Do you get the feeling that that folks in this site really think that you are a freak? Do you get the feeling that people think that you are just a disgusting, mealy-mouthed jerk that hasn't a clue about real truth? Do you get the feeling that nobody gives a rats ass about your stupid opinions? Well, I think you should trust your feelings!
Psychological projection much? I had been trying to comb through your quips and evasions… Excuse me for making the effort dissect this point-by-point, that just shows you what I get for endeavoring to take you seriously. Especially when you squirm and backtrack only to toss out the same charges a few paragraphs later.”
Actually you didn’t ‘dissect’ my points; in most cases, where I – regardless of the validity or lack thereof in my points – have explored the issues, you have merely inserted your visceral reactions in lieu of addressing my statements, and have turned an otherwise interesting discussion into an attack on my ‘credibility’, even going so far as to bring my nationality into it.
I don’t think you hold your views because you are American (assuming you are), and there are certainly plenty of people all outside America who share them – Just as there are many Americans who share mine.
‘Personal’ attacks and flippant psychoanalysis are irrelevant to the issue, and I have no interest in attacking your credibility. The idea is to debate the actual issues.
If your intention is merely to ‘win’ by ‘attrition’, I will gladly accommodate you by conceding ‘victory’ (whatever that means to you). My only interest here is exploring the issues (and dodging the coconuts of your lesser allies).
I will try to make more of an effort to make myself clearer, this time, and hopefully next time you paraphrase my views, you will do so a bit more accurately.
”Fine, If you wish to get to the substance of the situation we can talk about your reflexive blaming the USA for every malady under the sun, including (But by no means limited to) the Iranians taking British hostages in international waters, which was what the subject was.”
I don’t blame America for ‘everything under the sun’ – I simply lack the personal reflexive need to absolve America of her negative contributions to a given issue, and I see no merit in refusing to consider the CONTEXT of her enemies’ contribution to the same issue.
I am also disinclined to take seriously the bombastic rhetoric of either camp, preferring to focus on the substance of the international dynamic, in a historical context.
Terms like ‘The Great Satan’ and the ‘Axis of Evil’ are both equally simplistic and manipulative, and obstructive to clear analysis. As irritating as this is to the true sentimentalists of either side, it’s a lot more useful to at least try to be objective. That’s fair, surely?
America is just a country, like any other. No more, no less.
Nor do I blame her for Iran’s detainment of the British sailors. Britain’s involvement in the war was entirely voluntary.
”Does it help you to make sense of your world to have some monolithic source of infinite badness that you can point the finger at and declare that we are responsible for the actions of everyone else? “
I could ask you the same thing, but I won’t.
I can freely offer that: like every other nation or political force on the planet, there IS a CONTEXT for everything that America does, and that in assessing America’s vices or mistakes, fair attention should be paid to that context when judging her. Reflexive demonization is always counterproductive.
“Isn’t it a bit infantile to need to rationalize things in such “black and white” terms? “
It’s certainly simplistic and distortive, which is why I reject the sentimental propaganda of both sides (“They Hate Our Freedoms” and “It’s A War Against Islam”).
If I have appeared to be ignoring any gray areas, I sincerely beg your pardon.
“Where is our “moral equivalence”? Or can you only make rationalizing logical back flips for whomever is offering to murder us in the name of Allah? The poor underdog is always right and everyone else is always the poor underdog.”
Please rephrase this one in a slightly clearer form, preferably in it's own post.
”You want to talk about hypocrisy? Where is the effort to understand OUR motivations? You have not only demonstrated that you could care less but when the long suffering attempt is made to illuminate them you practically stick your fingers in your ears and chant LA LA LA LA at the top of your lungs.”
I have made no effort to malign your ideological motivations per se.
I am happy to believe the best in your own personal intentions, and the sincerity of your faith in everything your country does. I simply don’t share all of your perceptions of the mechanics involved, or your more reflexive assumptions about American foreign policy.
”We were attacked, repeatedly, killing thousands of Americans in several different countries on several different occasions. I know this because I was able to watch people I know being incinerated at their desks when some evil sub human hijacked aircraft full of human beings and flew it into buildings full of human beings. OK? Things like that have repercussions.Now, I have no doubt that even before you finished reading the sentence your mind was already working on the ways to de-legitimize that…”
I have no need or intention of de-legitimizing the American outrage at the events of 9/11.
On that day, America was definitely the wronged party.
It was a horrible tragedy, perpetrated by misguided psychopaths, and the first time America had ever been subjected to strategic aerial bombardment at home.
Which is why outpourings of sympathy were quite rightly extended from all of Europe – they know exactly how it feels.
A powerful military response was entirely appropriate, which is why there was virtually universal support for the invasion of Afghanistan, and for further steps to mitigate terrorism.
It’s in the details of implementation thereafter that opinions begin to differ.
“Whether it be the “Saddam is not al Queda” track (obviously, we are STILL killing al Queda there.) “
I appreciate your honesty.
“ the Zionists planned a controlled demolition track (Spit it out now so I can firmly place you in the nut category.)”
Distortive nonsense; I quite agree with you.
“But regardless, you are not going to acknowledge that we (you too) are in a war with monsters. You are not going to acknowledge that this is a part of an Islamic war against the west that has been going on, off and on for about a thousand years before the USA was even a country or at least going on before Bush was the president...”
The problem is, that analysis is an oversimplification of the greater history at work (Black and white, remember?) and that it completely bypasses the important specifics of secular regional politics (among traditional local factions, as well as internationally) in the past century, and in particular in the last 50 years.
Therefore, I respectfully reject those kinds of oversimplifications when the Jihaddist fanatics assert them as well (“A new western Crusade”, INDEED).
Yes, the perpetrators of 9/11 were monsters. That was never in question. But the fact that a lineup of suspects includes 5 rapists and an embezzler doesn’t absolve the embezzler, any more than the presence of the embezzler mitigates the rapes.
“I have no doubt that you will seek to blame those who you resent and make excuses for those who are doing their best to damage those you resent. “
I’m sorry you feel that way; but I don’t resent America as a culture, and I don’t make excuses for ANYONE’S vices.
I examine the context of my enemies’ behaviour rather more closely than some people might be comfortable with, as a tactical as well as an ethical imperative.
”So please, save the charges of hypocrisy unfairness when you are being hypocritical and unfair, your sham empathy for the LATEST crimes of the Iranian Revolutionary guard only serves to make you a reflexive, Islamist terrorist apologist.
Or worse, your genuine empathy for the LATEST crimes of the Iranian Revolutionary guard only serves to make you an idiot collaborator.”
(Shrug) See above.
”The USA is one of the oldest continuous running democracies on the planet.”
That’s true; you are one of them...
“…We invented the Atomic bomb and …”
Actually, it was a multi-lateral project building on knowledge from scientists of several countries (Americans, Germans, British, Canadian, etc), undertaken in joint partnership by America, Britain, and Canada (lesser-known facts: Canada had an equal deployment veto, supplied the uranium, and assembled large portions of the technology and shipped it south). The Americans, in addition to their own substantial scientific contributions, were obviously the senior partner and primary financier of the project. It would be unfair to devalue either the American contribution to the project, or that of the other partners.
“…used it to end world war 2…”
That is a matter of intense historical debate among reputable scholars of all stripes, the finer points of which are far too involved for redress here. I will offer that there is no doubting the sincerity of that sentiment among many Americans, Canadians, and Britons.
“..That was the last time. I recognize in your crazy way you think that all governments, societies and cultures are absolutely equal I think that is flat out wrong.. “
I don’t think they are all ‘equal’ (we’d have to define “equal”, anyway) but I do think that codified laws aspiring to ‘democratic universality’ must be APPLIED equally; for the same reason police forces are required to get a search warrant, and are vulnerable to speeding tickets like everyone else.
Moreover, you can’t realistically expect anyone to lie down and admit they are second class citizens (even if that designation is accurate or deserved) for long, any more than Americans would. I’m not even saying I like it; it’s just the way things are.
“and the Iranians have demonstrated by their words and deeds that they shouldn’t be trusted with a sharp stick, let alone an atomic bomb.”
I don’t think any nation can be ‘trusted’ with any weapon without accountability.
Governments change, national priorities change, cultures evolve, and not always in the best directions. (Germany wasn’t always Nazi Germany, and somehow one doubts that every Navy cook in the Third Reich was necessarily a bloodthirsty racist psychopath).
”(lol)...Thank you for putting words in my mouth. (lol) Much like previous quotes and actions you have attributed to others it is untrue...(lol)”
(lol)I’m not sure what you mean – I was addressing first-strike doctrines in a context of international law, and I’m still not sure where you stand.
Was Saddam wrong to invade Iran, and if so, why? His pretext was ancient territorial claims.
And was Saddam wrong to invade Kuwait, and if so, why? His pretext was ancient territorial claims.
“I would like nothing more then for Iran (lol) to rejoin the world community as a member in good faith. (lol)”
That’s encouraging. (-:
'...Personally I think the biggest victims of this are the Persians (lol) who have been brutally oppressed since 1979. (lol)...'
I completely agree with that particular statement. (-:
'I hope this latest crisis that Iran has instigated will be the catalyst for them getting rid of their mullahs (lol) and ayatollahs (lol) who are nothing but crypts and bloods with funnier hats. (lol)'
Absolutely. (-:
'Aren’t we having a jolly time talking about this? lol)'
It’s nice to see you lighten up!(lol)
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