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May 9, 2007, 9:39 GMT
Milan hospital replaces crucifix with Mary to please Muslims
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Older Talkback
Would an Italian Catholic, being treated in an Arabian or Iranian hospital, be
permitted to have a crucifix in the room? Or even a Bible on the bedside table?
I think not. Neither should the Italians allow the Muslims to dictate such matters
to them. If the Muslims don't like it, they will have to go elsewhere for their
treatment. There are plenty of hospitals outside Italy, not too far away in
Libya and Egypt, where their wishes will be met.
Iran, Kuwait, Oman, the UAE, and many other islamic nations.
Islam outlaws, forbids, and carries a heavy penalty if any Christians are caught worshipping or known to leaving the cult of islam.
Why does this Mohammed lie when all the truth can be easily read and verified on many internet searche engines?
People go look up on the cia.gov website and you can have much information about relgious persecution in the middle east.
Go read westernresistance.com or www.thereligionofpeace.com for more realistic updates on the horrendous conditions of relgious persecution today in the muslim nations.
Mohammed you have been caught and burned in your lies courtesy of the....
Hungarian Crusader 1453
Those muzzies never learn to quit debating when they have no chance of winning.
Re: Mirba
I don't support the acts of terrorists like Osama bin Laden. Instead I draw the line between him and mainstream Islam, just as I draw the line between mainstream Christianity and the Branch Davidians at Waco Texas, or the Sinn Fein and the Irish repulican Army in Northern Ireland, or the Jonestown cult in Guyana.
It's true, Islam right now is most on the news, but I would argue that it would be more constructive to understand the roots and thereby fix the problem then to spew murder and worsen it. To say that the only goal of radical Islam to take over the world is idiotic because that ignores that mot Muslims, just like Christians and every other religion, just want to live their lives without much trouble, getting the most out of it as possible and gain a little comfort about the afterlife on the side. In short, more people are too self-concerned to want involvement with radical Islam.
Besides, while you scream murder you at the same time go and gas up your SUV and therefore support all the oil producing countries in the middle east. You support countries like Saudi Arabia who then uses the money to support Islamic schools and mosques all over the world.
Oh, ps, while you're saying that Christianity isn't allowed anywhere in the Mid-East, google pictures 'religion middle east.' The second picture to the right on the top of the second page has a beautiful map showing the distribution of religion in the area. This map is from Columbia University.
This maps shows that Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, a few areas in Iran, Turkmenisten, Turkey, Eqypt has large populations of Christians...
the only country that doesn't allow other public religions is Saudi Arabia.
Martha, your sentiment is honorable but the facts are against you. Islam is not tolerant of other religions & even their own scholars admit this:
Maududi: 'One finds that the Qur'an was not revealed to preach religious tolerance as some people seem to think, but it was revealed in order to separate the Muslims from the disbeliever’s religion, their rites of worship, and their gods, and to express their total disgust.'
Comparing Muslims to Christians is just foolish. Where is the Christian Jihad counter (I presume you didn't bother to actually visit thereligionofpeace.com, which documents over 8200 Jihad attacks since 911)?
The simple truth is: when Christians commit murder in the name of Christianity, they are NOT following their prophet or religion.
When Muslims commit murder in the name of Islam, they ARE following their prophet and religion.
Martha, where do you think all the Christians in the Sudan have gone?
I did look at the site, and as far as I can see, there were absolutely no credentials. To which think-tank or college is this website affiliated with? I too could probably pull quotes out of context from the bible or torah that would suggest aggression. How else could people interpret the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery (southern plantation owners used the bible, i believe it was the story of cain, to justify slavery), religious persecution in Europe against the protestants, and all the pogroms against the Jews in Europe as sanctified by God? Besides, just because it says it, doesn't mean people follow it. When's that last time people here not coveted what others have? Aka have been jealous?
Second of all, if you look at all the different groups of radical Islam, there is no one, over-arching world supremacy goal, because there is no one over-arching leader of Islam like the Pope. Islam is splintered into Sunnism and Shi'ism and both of these groups are further splintered. (The four main schools of Sunni teaching, and the multiple interpretations of Shi'ism´including Ishmaili, Twelver, Druze (by some definitions)ect. The last 'leader' of Sunni Islam was the Ottoman Caliphate which ended after WWI. Therefore, there is not one Islam against the West. This opinion has popped up in most of the anti-Islam comments, and I believe false. Also, the lack of leadership allows for the unchecked radicalization of some groups, and constant reinterpretation of texts in ways that might not go under the umbrella of mainstream Islam. Hence, just because Mawdudi says something, doesn't mean all members heed him? He is just one interpretation of many, although I commend you for reading him.
Martha, are “collegiate association credentials” required to document Jihad attacks? Are you saying you believe that list to be false? Have you not been reading the daily headlines? I challenge you to disprove any one of those Jihad attacks – please post it here!
And while you’re at it, please, please, tell us in which context would these Islamic quotes be OK:
Tabari VIII:38 'The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded.
Bukhari:V1B1N6 'Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.
Tabari VII:97 'The next morning, the Jews were in a state of fear on account of our attack upon the enemy of Allah. After the assassination, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill every Jew.''
Ishaq:368: Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.''
Tabari IX:69 'Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.'
8.55, 9.5, 95.5, 9.111 Infidels are the worst beasts and lowest creatures and must be killed wherever they are found.
Qur’an: 9:29: ‘Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor follow the religion of truth, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection’
Islam's own scriptures are hateful & murderous IN ANY CONTEXT!
Whining 'it's out of context' is no justification for such evil dogma. Perhaps when there are suicide bombings on your street, you’ll at long last understand.
'Milan hospital replaces crucifix with Mary to please Muslims'
It would please me to replace the Muslims with human beings.
... a person committed to peace and who died for everyone's sins is soooo inflammatory!
I imagine Jesus up in Heaven just shaking his head thinking what are all these people doing??? He died for anyone of any background that chooses to accept him. The fact of the matter is there have been many terrible acts done in his name or the name of religion period that have nothing to do with him or what he stood for. His greatest commandment was to love thy neighbor and that seems to be the human race's biggest failing.
entire middle east my Martha the PhD of all that is islam.
Did you know, or bother to read or hear the news reports of the constant hemmoraging of the Christian minority exodus FROM THE MIDDLE EAST PROFESSOR MARTHA!
Look it up!!
Iraq is the WORST right now with Orthodox, Catholic, small groups of Jews, and Protestants leaving roughly 2,000 EVERY MONTH and you still have the audacity to claim Christians are just fine in the middle east.
Did you know Christians are being beheaded by Iraqi insurgents and our great MSM is not bothering to report it.
Apparently they only think a dog barking in the face of a known terrorist in Guantanamo Bay is human butchery and the worst of torture mankind has known in our history.
This leftist denial is why I still vote Republican.
Christian populations have been in great decline since the 1960's and has accelerated greatly in the 1980's thanks to the civil wars in Lebanon.
What is your malfunction with reality woman?
Christians are being murdered, kidnapped, raped, and sent off to slavery and you still claim muslims are tolerant and Christianity is just safe in the islamic world.
I am so done with you silly woman.
Go read the CIA website for more information, www.thereligionofpeace.com or www.westernresistance.com.
FOX news is good with also CNN on good days.
STOP LIVING IN DENIAL OF REALITY as many Arab Christians would love to tell you otherwise of their sufferings.
Hungarian Crusader 1453
Ok, this has gotten rediculous. If this whole terrorist thing is the entire Islamic world rising against christianity, because they like to kill Christians, then why aren't there a billion (estimated population of Muslims) suicide attacks against the west instead of 8,000? If the entire Islamic world was after the west then where's the big battle? Why aren't Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, Oman, Eqypt, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, half of Africa, Indonesia, the Philipines, the stans, Mongolia, Albania, Bosnia ect. at war with the united states & europe if the entire point of islam is to wage war against the west? (Only about 20% of the world's Muslims come from the Middle East.)
Get over your paranoid selves. But before you do that, let me just tell you that by a recent report there are an estimated 6-7 million Muslims in the USA, about 2 million practicing. I really hope you can still sleep at night, because they're out to behead you, and your little dog too.
Maybe there wouldn't have had to have been such emigration from Iraq, if the US prescence hadn't created a complete power vacuum in which everyone is now fighting for power. The US army unfortunately cannot maintain absolute control of an entire country (a daunting feat indeed) so others (like the Shi'a militias fill the vacuum, and then fight to maintain power from others who would.)
And Elizabeth Picard in 'Lebanon: a shattered country' maintains that a large factor of the Lebanese Civil War was due to the immigration of Palestinian refugees (from Israel) which upset the delicate consocialist balance of power that governed Lebanon, leading to the Civil War. Therefore, the Israeli removal of Palestinians is a plausible cause for the Civil War, not that it was multi-religious.
Oh, and TELL me where to go on the CIA website. Dropping CIA does nothing for you.
Here are some Qur'anic quotes that suggest tolerance:
And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. (3:199)
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book [Christians and Jews] except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. 29:46
Martha, you really don't know your Islamic scriptures, do you? The verses you cited were ABROGATED by suras 33, 60, 4, 99, 57, 47, 13, 55, 76, 65, 98, 59, 110, 24, 22, 63, 58, 49, 66, 61, 62, 64, 48, 9, 5. You'll really get a kick out of these latter chapters, which feature the 'spoils of war' & 'repentance' suras. They also feature the really hateful dogma (previously cited) which I'm still waiting for you to justify IN ANY CONTEXT. If you actually take the time to read this crap, you must bear in mind that you also need to read the Sunnah in conjunction, as the Koran utterly lacks chronology and context. The Sunnah and Qur'an are all Muslims have. Together, they are Islam -- Muhammad is unknown to the world without them.
Now, I'm not saying that all Muslims are bad people, but their scriptures are fundamentally bad -- very bad! Hateful, oppressive, violent, just like Nazism. Would you condone a revived Nazi ideology in America? This is why Islam must be repudiated. We cannot tolerate intolerance! People like you, who are uneducated or deceived as to what the Islamic scriptures truly say, are only helping to bring sharia law to the West. As I mentioned before, when Osama bin Laden claimed he was 'following in his prophet's footsteps' -- he was telling the truth. Peaceful Muslims are not true to their dogma.
At that then would be abbrogated by Sura 109.
This has the three different translations:
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!
109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,
109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
It looks as though in the end it says, to each his own, even if you are unbelievers.
Oh yes, 110, says:
110.001
YUSUFALI: When comes the Help of Allah, and Victory,
PICKTHAL: When Allah's succour and the triumph cometh
SHAKIR: When there comes the help of Allah and the victory,
110.002
YUSUFALI: And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,
PICKTHAL: And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops,
SHAKIR: And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,
110.003
YUSUFALI: Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).
PICKTHAL: Then hymn the praises of thy Lord, and seek forgiveness of Him. Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy.
SHAKIR: Then celebrate the praise of your Lord, and ask His forgiveness; surely He is oft-returning (to mercy).
nothing about killing the unbeliever.
Martha, 109 was an early Meccan surrah & was abrogated many times over.
110 was also abrogated. The last surrahs handed down were 9 & 5 in that order. HERE THEN ARE THE KORAN’S LAST COMMANDS TOWARDS INFIDELS!
Qur'an:9:5 'Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.'
Qur'an:9:29 'Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.'
Qur'an:9:88 'The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause.'
Qur'an:9:14 'Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.'
Qur'an:9:38 'Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.'
Qur'an:9:123 'Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.'
Qur'an 5:51 'Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.'
Qur'an 9:29 'Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.' [Another translation says:] 'pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.'
Qur'an 5:17 '...Say (Muhammad): ‘Who then has the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary, his mother, and everyone else on earth?'
Qur'an 5:35 'Believers, fear Allah and seek the way to approach Him, striving hard, fighting Jihad with all your might in His Cause that you may be successful. As for the disbelievers [previously defined as Christians], if they had everything on earth, two times over, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Doom, it would never be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful torment. They will desire to get out of the fire, but they shall not be released from it. They shall have an everlasting torture.'
Qur'an 5:49 'And this (He commands): Judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their [Christian] desires, but beware of them lest they beguile you, seducing you away from any of that which Allah hath sent down to you. And if they turn you away [from being Muslims], be assured that for their crime it is Allah's purpose to smite them. Truly most men are rebellious.'
Qur'an 5:73 'They are surely disbelievers who blaspheme and say: ‘God is one of three in the Trinity for there is no Ilah (God) except One, Allah. If they desist not from saying this (blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall them - the disbelievers will suffer a painful doom.'
Qur'an 5:77 'Say (Muhammad): ‘People of the Book, do not overstep the bounds in your religion, or follow the people who erred and led many astray. Cursed are the unbelievers among the Children of Israel by David and Jesus.... They do vile things, allying themselves with the infidels so that Allah's indignation is upon them and in torment they will suffer for all eternity.' [Another translation reads:] 'Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.'
Qur'an 5:80 'You see many of them allying themselves with the unbelieving infidels. Vile indeed are their souls. Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.'
Qur'an 5:82 'You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims.'
Qur'an 5:117 'I only said what You (Allah) commanded me to say: Worship Allah, my lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them but you took me up. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world.)'.
Now there's a little something about killing the unbeliever, huh? You delusional woman. Martha, any questions?
Well said Mirba. There is just no way around all that.
Thank you (above).
I urge visitors here to read this whole blog from start to finish: can there be any further dispute? To anyone reading this in the West: every time a mosque pops up in your neighborhood, this murderous cancer called Islam encroaches into your lives. If you permit this, it’s only a matter of time before there are suicide bombings on your street! Do you want Jihad in your headlines? Do you want your children to grow up paying a Jizya tax? You have to say no to Islam now! Hold your leaders accountable; call them & speak out against it’s terrorist dogma (you can quote it from here). It is so obviously NOT a religion of peace. Your future depends on it.
Hungarian Crusader strikes again,
Oh Martha, Miss Mighty Whitey, Defender and Loving Protector of the Islamic Devils.
There are 1.2 billion muzzie infidels and guess what?
They are ALL in the cause of islamic jihad.
This is the reality of the situation.
Muslims today do either 1 of 2 things.
1. They have groups that are actively recruiting, training, shooting, driving insurgent, or building bombs.
2. The next group are the more silent and sinister muslims.
They are the ones hiding weapons, smuggling drugs and terrorists, becoming politically active in local and national politics of their host nations.
As in the case of CAIR, they are constantly attempting to undermine US political efforts and threatening to sue govt employees and now the latest thing promising TO SUE any American citizens that report ANY SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITIES OF MUSLIMS AT US AIRPORTS!
Why would muslims want to do that I wonder....Martha please tell me I am aching for another smashing answer.
Do you want to tell me why those muslim friends of yours do not attack us here in America right now as you claim they are so peaceful?
Simple.
Most people in the entire world realize nearly every US household has several guns with ample supplies of ammunition and we are ready to use it in defense of our nation.
Does that sound familiar.
Muslims also know Americans are not cissified, politically correct, and lazy as Europeans who cower in their homes every time the muslims start burning down large suburban areas of the major, European cities.
Americans will come out and fight within a minutes notice as they tried to here in a suburb of Chicago in 2001 with nearly 4,000 people surronding a local mosque.
Reasons as this are why the muslim rats are acting within limits here in America, but the demographic threat muslims pose can be a long term threat.
That is another reason why I am in favor of muslims being sent back home to their ancestral lands where they can marry their cousins and live incestously to their hearts content.
Regarding the CIA website you small mind, I was suggesting you read it for the sake of showing how few Christians are in islamic nations as a percentage and they are shrinking more every year.
What else do I have to shred of your alleged arguments?
This topic is being overdone for my taste.
Shame on you, the more you speak, the more you show of your folly.
The only reason why that suburban mosque was not turned into a pile of hot ash is because I saw police from 4 different suburbs, backed up with units from the sheriffs dept, the forest preserve dept, and state troopers.
I think this happened in October, 2001 one evening when I was returning home from work and I gladly joined in the convoy of blaring cars, various biker groups on their Harleys, and masses of marching residents wishing to get their hands on agitating muslims.
I believe it kicked off because the story goes several muslims were seen tearing up a US flag and this news spread as fire through my neighborhood.
Well, I guess those muzzies know without a doubt now that Americans will not tolerate attacks on our cities and than have the ballitos to deface our flag.
No, Americans are definitely not like those Europeans.
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