Fierce debate between Lutherans and Muslims in Germany

Europe Features

By Gerd Korinthenberg Jun 9, 2007, 3:55 GMT

Cologne, Germany - German Muslim leaders have robustly criticized a forthright 'position papier' issued last November by the EKD, the umbrella body for 23 Lutheran churches in Germany. In characteristically Protestant fashion, the document suggested Muslims should be more critical about themselves and it starkly set out why Lutherans disagree with Islam. Coming at a time when Germans were heavily preoccupied with an alleged Islamic threat, the paper caused strains that have still not been overcome between EKD and Islamic leaders. Ayyub Axel Koehler, chairman of the Council of Muslims, and Bekir Alboga, spokesman for the DITIB religious authority, were blunt in a debate with Lutheran leaders at a church congress this week in the German city of Cologne. More than 2,000 Lutherans crammed a hot, sweaty pavilion in Cologne to hear the debate on religious freedom. The politically correct may have expected compliments and blurring of differences, but it was not to be. Koehler told the church-people that Europe should be ashamed of the 'trail of blood' that it had left throughout the world down the centuries. He said it was a step in the right direction that the two sides were talking, but he finished by slamming the EKD chairman, Bishop Wolfgang Huber, for 'unnecessarily driving a wedge between Christians and Muslims.' Koehler, a German who converted to Islam in 1963, questioned why the Protestant leader was repeatedly and unnecessarily saying that the two religions worship a different God. He said Lutherans were still moving up the 'learning curve' and their paper last November contained the 'language of separateness and trying to make yourself look good.' Huber, who heads the Berlin Lutheran Church, gave a dramatic speech in defence of the Lutheran stance that it is 'every Christian's duty' to speak up for his own beliefs when meeting with a person of another religion. He added that Christians respected the right of other religions to do the same thing, and denied that this zeal for the Christian faith had anything to do with conducting a mission to convert Muslims. Earlier this year, Muslim groups charged that Lutherans were smearing more than 3 million German Muslims by alleging that they were susceptible to violent Islamism. Koehler, whose trade-mark bow-tie marks him out from Lutheran churchmen wearing long ties, made one remark, perhaps overlooked in the cut and parry of debate, suggesting a way out of the conflict. 'I am hoping that we have a dialogue by our actions,' he said in a suggestion for a pragmatic approach to co-existence between the religions on German soil. In Germany, a country of more than 80 million people, there are about 26 million Protestants and about the same number of Catholics. A joint appeal for a more just world issued by Christians, Muslims and other major religions during the Lutheran congress to the G8 summit meeting in northern Germany showed what was possible, he said. Huber, still sweating from the heat, told a reporter for Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa after the Thursday speech that the passionate debate might not have settled the differences 'but at least it establishes where we all stand.' Alboga said that despite the sharp differences since the paper was issued, Protestants could count on Muslims to keep the lines of communication open. Senior figures from both sides met in May in a mosque in the city of Mannheim, but made no progress. The Lutheran church was continuing to reject the establishment of a joint commission to discuss faith differences, Alboga charged. © 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-Agentur

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Again, this muslim rat has nerve.Jun 9th, 2007 - 04:26:53

The babylonian moongod worshipper 'Europeans should be ashamed of the blood trail they left during the centuries' as if expecting an apology for Europeans defending themselves and throwing out muslims who occupied Europe for nearly 700 years.

No, you muzbot, YOU and your CULT fans should be ashamed for the bloodbath that ranged from Iraq, Egypt, Constantinople, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Serbia, Hungary, and Croatia.

These muslims are the ones who ranged far and wide throughout the middle east, Africa, Asia, and Europe killing millions who did not want to accept the alleged gift of islam.

The muslims are the ones who need to apologize and compensate several hundred million people today for the oceans of blood they spilled in the name of their pagan god.

I am so glad and relieved to hear the Lutherans in Germany standing up to this insidious threat to all of Europe and the world.

Hopefully, other groups and nations will follow the example of these brave people.

Europe, wakeup and defend yourselves from this Trojan horse threat of islam that now festers inside your lands.

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It is obviousJun 9th, 2007 - 04:39:33

'Earlier this year, Muslim groups charged that Lutherans were smearing more than 3 million German Muslims by alleging that they were susceptible to violent Islamism.'

How could anyone pretend otherwise at this point?

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porkyJun 9th, 2007 - 06:52:32

Muslims only tolerate other religions when Islam is in the minority. When Islam becomes supreme they concentrate on exterminating all other religions.
It is part of their religion to lie to and murder other faiths, their God told them to do this through their murdering paedophile prophet Muhammed.
The internet will eventually destroy Islam because they can no longer spin their lies without the rest of the world listening and thinking.

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NoharnessJun 9th, 2007 - 10:26:23

Faith is the belief in things unseen and unknowable. This rules out the effective use of reason when adherents of differing theologies meet. Without reason to guide them it does not take very long for the guns and knives to come out.

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Wm GavinJun 9th, 2007 - 22:04:31

Send the moslems back to Saudi Arabia. They are a cult which worships the moon and are not a religion. They have been 'weannabes' and trouble makers for centuries.

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terence sommerJun 10th, 2007 - 20:01:14

There is no reconciling with islam. One cannot do it. Der Spiegel, a german weekly, a publication known to be on the 'left', had an article recently on how muslims are forging a parallel society with in germany whose article concluded with a sitiuation with a berlin high school teacher. He was told, after wanting to bring up the headscarf issue, that it was an issue that concerned muslims only and that he 'should keep his mouth shut'. How is this not an issue for a high school teacher? I am glad that Europe is waking up as it must do now. Europe must have a 'European Response Movement' for Europeans who want to save the beautiful old continent, God knows the liberal polititions and thier golden eurabian hopes will not support the European people's with this situation, which will be/is the biggest battle Europe will have ever known. Support our European brothers and sisters!

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from lebanonJun 11th, 2007 - 12:21:31

I was in a great shock when I read the comments. it really reflect ignorance on Islam and its history, even ignorance on Europe history.
It is essential to know that the first enemy of dialogue between religions is ignorance, but how to conquer it? The only way is to gain knowledge by reading, asking Muslims what do they believe in.. what their religious books tell them ?
They do not worship a pagan god as some comments said , they worship the almighty God the greater of all us , the one only God , they do not worship the moon , or any thing else, they believe in all prophets starting from Adam ,Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses , Jesus and many other prophets. Muslims are obliged to respect all believers and non believers as well, the prophet Mohamed said to his followers if any Muslim in any time anywhere harmed a Jew or a Christian , he will be my enemy for the rest of his live
He ordered them not to harm any person , he stood up as a sign of respect for a funeral was passing in front of him , his followers asked him why did you do this it is a funeral of a Jewish? He said , wasn’t he a person with soul . the prophet in this occasion taught them to respect the human soul despite all kind of differences
I ask those who wrote the comments to go back to public libraries and educate themselves and Islam and also about all religions in the world, it is the age of internet and free transfer of knowledge , it is no longer permissible to keep medieval concepts while living in the 21st century

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Education is what makes me hate islam more today.Jun 12th, 2007 - 04:17:07

It is blasphemous against Christ.
The koran commands in 134 verses for its followers to kill, rape, ransom, enslave, lie, and engage in sedition in nations that do not have an islamic government in power.
The Bible commands us TO LOVE ALL INCLUDING NON-BELIEVERS AND NOT TO KILL BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO CONVERT!!
The koran commands muslims to kill Jews (tell me how can God order others to kill His own chosen people that he loves so much???)
The allah of islam is a babylonian, moongod that arises from the ground....sounds like where hell is located to me and isnt good supposed to come from the skies?!?!?!?!? That is where heavan is located according to all the major religions. Sorry about your research.
The bible has dozens of instances where the destruction of Jerusalem was foretold, the birth of Christ, the death of Christ, and His resurrection hundreds of years before the events occured.
What did the koran ever predict.......NOTHING!!!!!
The koran BABBLES on hatred, lies, and reads like a horror book.
I think YOUR ignorance is in pure lies and fantasy.
Tell me again who is uneducated and uninformed here?

Hungarian Crusader 1453

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To from lebanonJun 12th, 2007 - 11:15:40

And I recommend that you take care of your own business in Lebanon! I don't care what you do over there, if you kill yourselves or if you give yourselves to Syria. If you don't like what we think about muslims, fine with me. Just tell your 'brothers' to leave us alone, and go pray in Saudi Arabia. And, sincerely, I don't care if you think I'm racist or not. I don't want muslims here, and that's all.

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from lebanonJun 12th, 2007 - 11:52:39

I would like to correct the comment of Hungarian Crusader 1453
Quran has 114 suras , what versus do you refer to ? and in what sura ? would you please mention the versus and in which sura is located?
Quran calls for peacefull existence among nations , in sura al Rum no 30 versus 22 considers the differences among humankind as a sign of God’s wisdom it says :
“ And Among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth , and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily , in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge”
In sura alhujorat no 49 versus 13 the Quran says “ O Mnakind ! we created you from a male and a female ,and and made you into nations and tribes , that you may know one another . verily , the most honorable of you with Allah (God) is that the who has piety . verily ,Allah is all Knowing Well –Acquainted (with all things “
God yes in HEAVEN ? God is there wherever the faithful turnes his/her face , he is in the heart of the true believers , in sura alBaqar no 2 versus 115 it says “ And to Allah belong the east and the west , so wherever you turn there is the face of Allah(and He is High above , over His Throne) surely Allah is All –sufficient for his creatures’s needs All knowing”

About the prophets , sura Al IMRAN no 3 versus 84 says “ Say we believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us , and what was sent down to Ibraham ,Ismael, Issac, Jacob and the offspring of the twelve sons of Jacob and what was given to Moses , Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to HIM (Allah ) we have submitted (in Islam) “

I would like to end my comment with 2 versus 69 from sura Al’Maidah no.5
“ surely , those who believe (in the ones of Allah and his messenger Mohamed ) and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians , -whose believed in Allah and the last day , and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear , nor shall they grieve .”
and the second from sura Al'Maidah versus 87 '.. and transgress not . verilt Allah does not like the transgressors '

In case “ Hungarian Crusader 1453” needs to get a copy of the Quran translated into English I would be happy send it to you .

May God OF heavens and skies protect and Bless you

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