Security but no certainty as Tallinn sees uneasy peace
Europe Features
By Ben Nimmo Apr 29, 2007, 1:57 GMT
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There was never any integration, this is a lie, only painful subordination of Estonians to Russians demands, which they were not allowed to complain during 50 years of Russian occupation, and at that time officially 'the integration was working'. Now most of the Russians cannot speak Estonian language even on the level of the most simple conversations, in spite that many of them have lived here already 50 years. Some of them though, know Estonian, but force Estonians to speak with them in Russian, saying that 'they must', also using unpleasant voice while talking to Estonians, in spite that Estonians know that Russian may also sound soft and silent, when the Russians talk between themselves. In all Russians schools, the teaching is still in Russian, no integration attempts of introducing Estonian in high schools, were not successful in 15 years, mainly because of Russians resistance. For Estonians it's unbearable how Russians discriminate Estonians, who have no real power in their own country, a process which continues already more than 50 years. In many Russian companies, no Estonians work, while Russians often work in Estonian companies. Russians sometimes persecute Estonians by forcing them to do what some Russian wants, while criticize when Estonian does the same things, they torture some Estonians in every little step of their life. But the Estonians never used violent protests, as they are peaceful people by nature, and this is paradoxically also likely why world knows nothing about their suffering. But other figures show that though, Estonia has some of the highest rates of suicide and cardio-vascular disease in the world, they just silently suffer and die.
Estonia now is not what it used to be 50 years ago whether we want it or not. 30% of ethnic Russians live there - you just cannot close your eyes on that. It does not make big sense to discuss why. It is reality. The same reality happened with Great Britain over the past 50 years. British population grew more than 70% due to the emigration from Asian, African and East European countries, not all of them are very much welcome by locals. However British society is much more tolerant to such an influx of 'foreigners'.
Estonia must look westward, to Great Britain, to learn that simple lesson.
(I am Russian leaving in England)
PS Incidentally 250 thousand Russians leaving now in London never protested against the memorial to the British died in the Crimean war: in the Estonian logic they should have been treated as occupants to Russia!
Actually that is because British memorials to British war dead from the Crimean campaign are in Britain. Estonians want rid of a reminder of their oppression by Russia, it's a little different. Would you like Nazi memorials to Germans killed at Stalingrad in Moscow? Go grow one.
Hungary suffered no less than Estonia or any othe Baltic country. Yet, to dismantle a war memorial of the Russian Army is barbaric and primitive. Nationalism is not the solution, it is nowadays the surest way to fascism (defined as the social-political system in which the inductrial-military complex takes over the political power) that is already on the march in the U.S.A. The countries like Estonia, Lituania, Letvia and Georgia are seeking the approval of the policies of their weak, myopic leaders by Bush's U.S., instead of building friendship in their neighborhoods.
Finland was 'occupied' by Sweden 200 years ago, Finand has a swedish-speaking minority of only 6% and Finland is still a bilingual country. Integration is not forced assimilation, it is about respecting the rights of everybody. History is in the past, Estonia has still a long way to go to become a true western democracy.
In my country wea have three different languages to speak and we drag behind us a conflict between the Flemish and the Fench speaking communities .THe Flemish community which was even in the past the biggest but then poorest economically was forced to adopt French as leading lanuage .In the first world war in the trenches the troopers were predominantly flemish,the commanding officers french speaking .Most of the soldiers even did not understand simple orders barked at them in french .BUt this is all past now and we learn that we can not blame the next generation for the mistakes of their parents .JUst correct the situation and let bygones be bygones .BUt what is the need of removing the statue of a soldier somewhere in Tallinn ?Is this not dictated by nationalist feelings ?Is this statue realy an insult to a nation ? Not for me to answer .
But I would like to point out that hostory in the baltic stated is not just black and white.I distinctly remember reading about horrible persecutions of jewish people at the beginnig of WW2 by a large part of the population,pogroms and active collaboration with nazi-germany in the war effort .The removal of the statue with this picture in the historical rearview mirror represents for the russian minority and others almost a glorification of this period ;if not meant as an insult,was certainly percieved that way by a minority which has a different perception of baltic history .It certainly does not help to heal the scars of the past.
Estonians like to remember excesses of Soviet occupation and it generally finds support and understanding by the West and EU, whose current presidency is held by Germany. Also, Estonians like to forget about the dark parts of WWII history when Estonians 'liberated' from Soviet oppression by Germans/Nazis enthusiastically collaborated with Third Reich executing Jews, Russians and other minorities in Estonia. They also like to forget about present situation when many ethnic Russians living in Estonia (Russian Estonians) are systematically discriminated against. Or the fact, that new statues are erected in the memory of Estonian veterans who also happened to be SS veterans merely by accident, of course (in a country with such a controversial past and present as Estonia's, you should either keep all statues and monuments, or remove them all. Favoring pro-Nazi monuments over anti-Nazis is most unacceptable). Or the fact, that Baltic countries tried to sabotage celebrations of 60th anniversary of victory over Nazis in 2005. Or the fact, there are many people who was born in Estonia and lived in Estonia all their life are still viewed by Estonia as aliens, don't have Estonian citizenship, and will not get it any time soon since the current Estonian system tries to prevent it at all costs. In this context, the removal of Soldier-Liberator directly insults all those who fought Nazis in WWII and especially all ethnic Russians.
When Christians fight , jews celebrate! This whole thing is 'made in Israel' and Zionist's puppets carried it out, read Douglas Reed's 'Controversy of Zion' you'll get it then.
The Estonian government handled the removal of the monument early Friday morning. The Russian government, however has equally handled this situation poorly. Thursday Putin decries external interference in the sovereign Russian state, and not 24 hours later his government actively promotes the interference of the internal affairs of a sovereign state. The situation is not as black and white as previous comments have tried to argue. Further, the comparisons to other states are inherently false. The Estonian government needs to cope with the fact that the Russian minority as a result of the illegal Soviet occupation is not going to change, and better policies need to be initiated. Ethnic Russians in Estonia need to do a better job of integrating into the state, primarily through learning the language. The Russian Federation needs to realize that World War II for the Baltic States did not end until 1991, and the Soviet 'liberation' led to long-term catastrophic implications for the nations under 50 years of systematic Sovietization.
RE: Finn. It is an intellectually dishonest comparison between the Soviet occupation of Estonia and the case of territorial Finland being part of Sweden. There was no political Finnish nation-state prior to the Swedish period. Finnish national identity did not emerge until the 19th century. Further, Finland has actively used the Swedish heritage to its own advantage through emphasizing its 'northern' and 'western' roots and downplay its 'eastern' location. The only way a comparison could have been made is if the FCMA Treaty in 1948 did not occur and Finland was Sovietized.
RE: A Hungarian. Radical nationalism is never the solution to anything. Hungary as an entity did exist during the Cold War despite its political orientation. The communist period did not leave an irreperably different population in Hungary as in former Soviet republics such as Estonia and Latvia.
RE: Pogroms and collaboration. This is one of the most difficult problems facing the historiography of the period. In the Baltic case, such collaboration with Nazis did occur. It can be argued, however, that the Baltic republics were hoping for a repeat of World War I. That is, a German victory in the East followed by the subsequent German defeat from the West. It would have been the only way for independent states to re-emerge. Anti-semitism has inherently been a problem in Europe, but it doesn't discount Soviet actions.
RE: Victory Day. Russians must understand that in the Baltic context 'Victory Day' marks the beginning of 50 years of foreign occupation. If the Russian Federation wants to glorify the actions of a Stalinist state as part of its own Westernizing narrative, than the Russian Federation must also acknowledge that it is responsible for the current demographic situation in the Baltic States vis-a-vis the situation in 1939. If the Russian Federation truly cares about its minorities residing in other states, it must make reconciliatory moves towards neighboring sovereign states that the Soviet Union took off the map. Further, denial of Victory Day does not equal promoting Nazism.
This problemis deeper than just the statue. Estonians were repressed during 50+ years of Russian rule. Now Rusians feel repressed during 15 years of Estonian rule. I hope things calm down and both sides can discuss their differences intelligently, and learn to live together peacefully, for all their and thier childrens sakes (many who are mixed Estonian/Russian now anyway)
Since the breakup of the Soviet Union,
Russia has given the former satellites generous deals on oil and trade,
it would be a shame if this incident caused Russia's attitude towards its neighbors to harden
The reason most Estonians welcomed the germans in 41 was cause the russians invaded in 40. Some were involved in the nazi genocide of Jews but not many. From the writtings of most of the Estonian posters here it seems that the Russian 'settlers' have been some what arrogant in their treatment of the native peoples.
Russians should either intergrate into their new societies or face the course of history, you cannot live in an independant country while distaining the very peoples that host you, stop looking to Putin to force your hosts to accept your ways, instead do as the brits did in the Carribean and blend in as humans and not nationalists. The Estonians have always treated others well even though that has not been returned to them. If you are Estonian and Russin you are in a paradox of the end of an empire, if wise choose to intergrate, if foolish choose conflict. Its just a statue.
Removing the memorial to those who sacrificed their lives in the struggle against facism was mean and stupid. If you want to make some sort of statement of resentment or defiance, then there are better ways than insulting dead war heroes. Or would you rather be speaking German now?
JL, you just proved my point. It is not about how or when the occupation happened, it is about how a western democracy works and respects the rights of its citizens. I believe ethnic russians on estonian soil aren't a 50 year old thing. You have every right to be mad, but a western democracy doesn't rectify the problems of Sovietization with Estonization.
Russians, Estonians, etc., it's all the same, 'post Soviet mentality' You need to learn how to respect others to begin with. You think that life is all about BMWs, Parker fountain pens and Armani jeans, it's not that. Educate yourselves !!
Joe AmericanApr 29th, 2007 - 11:05:36
Removing the memorial to those who sacrificed their lives in the struggle against facism was mean and stupid. If you want to make some sort of statement of resentment or defiance, then there are better ways than insulting dead war heroes. Or would you rather be speaking German now?
Hallo meine herren, wo ist der flipperwaldt gersput?
actually, if you havent heard yet, its being moved to a CEMETERY, instead of having it in a trolley bus stop where people come waving red flags and calling all of us fascists
Of course the reburial will be with full honors, unlike in russia where in a little down called Himki just on the outskirts of Moscow, they brought in an excavator and started digging the place up
but I guess you havent read about that
In other news, russian media tells everyone that that russians working in estonian police are quitting their jobs because apparently 'they dont like beating up innocent people'
That is untrue. No-one is leaving.
its up on Interfax
Then there is the saying that rioting is the response to removing the statue, well guess what - the russians must be really good at telling the future since the riots started half a day earlier
Of course the russian media announced that it has been cut to pieces, that is also untrue.
Then there was this russian citizen who was killed in the clashes. Clashes with other rioters.
cant think of anything else right now, there is a lot of desinformation though
It's not just a monument, it is a grave where the remains of soldiers fought against Nazis buried. Stop the grave-digging! Poland announced they are also going to join the honorable grave-digging activities in the near future. This will further alienate Russia and will help strengthen anti-Western, anti-democratic attitudes of all peoples of Russia. Remember, Russia lost more than 20 millions people fighting against Germans and their collaborators (half of Europe). Estonians should learn how to live with their legacy.
Liebe :G Apr 29th, 2007 - 12:41:44
Das mag wohl wahr sein, aber es ist noch immer eine Beleidigung.
Certainly not very smart nor very tactful, and perhaps even a deliberate provocation. I hope we Americans will eventually have the humility and the courage to erect a monument to all the innocent Iraqi war victims, and display it conspicuously and prominently so that we are constantly reminded of our shame, and that it remains to prick our conscience until the fascists decide to tear it down. Then we know we are in REAL trouble. Admission of error can be very cleansing... denial will eventually pop your cork.
Joe American,
thumbs up !!
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