Asia-Pacific News
Mar 31, 2008, 14:11 GMT
China slams EU on Tibet statement; world protests mount (Roundup)
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Older Talkback
@ Alex
There is no misunderstanding from my side, maybe am little too straight. Okay, coming back to the discussion:
> I am not suggesting India shouldn't be controlling a large part of
> Kashmir. I think they should.
Kashmir problem to my understanding India has clear title of possession aka Alignment with India under Instrument of Accession signed by then Kashmir King. Problem here was Pakistan, which is more or less like a rogue nation protected by USA! Later, China too secretly developed ambitions against India. That's why China has close links with Pakistan and continuously arms it with Missiles and Nuclear weapons, which could be used against India! So, my *archives* say that Kashmir is only India's business. Period.
> However, it is also clear to me that a sizeable majority of people
> in Kashmir don't want to be part of India.
Does this make sense? Let's see *through* your logic! Okay, imagine 1/3 Kashmiri people are willing to break-off. It's the same case with Tibet too. Is China ready to part away with Tibet? Then what right China or Pakistan have with Kashmir? Why are they occupying India's Kashmir? They do they support direct/indirect methods for unrest in Kashmir? If China does that, why shouldn't India do with Tibet? If India gets a super strong leadership in the coming years to counter all the threats, what would happen? Any answers?
> Is China more irresponsible than other big nations?
China had/has problems with then USSR, USA, EU, Japan, India etc. Worst betrayal was with India. They have cheated them will full of lies! But those Indians still believe these Chinese, disgusting.
> America goes to war in Iraq, and previously in Vietnam and Korea.
With all due respect to my fellow Americans, my 2 cents for their stupid policies! Now they are messing up with NATO and ex-USSR regions. By such actions USA will eventually sow the seeds for Cold War II with Russia and/or China! Is that all necessary?
Let me tell you again, some policies of USA are really stupid. First they invest into a country which can't be trusted at all, China! Later it grows with a 10% plus GDP rate for over a decade, in this process slowly but solidly arms and grows into a big monster. Is that all necessary?
Remember, till date expenditure with Iraq war is $500 billion, analysts estimated another $500 billion would flow!! How many people can be fed and bettered with that money on this planet? Whole Africa can be been turned into prosperity. Sigh! Is that all necessary? Anyone can answer?
For those that are still confused that Tibet is a province of China look at these maps created by western cartographers over the past several hundred years. All show Tibet as a province of China. These maps are at: newschecker.blogspot.com
China never used military force to occupy Tibet. To learn more of the military force China did use to stop terrorist activities from the Dalai Lama and his forces armed and trained by the CIA in the 1950's google 'ST Circus' which is the name of the CIA operation to train Tibetan terrorists to help overthrow the Chinese government and help establish US military bases in China. There is also a good Youtube British documentary on the subject that was broadcasted a few years ago on TV. Search youtube for ST circus, CIA & Tibet.
Sorry so many of you are still confused on the history of Tibet.
@ Biowizard
> Someone has accused China been an aggressor. Please get some facts
> strait before making that statement. As I stated the Western nations
> had been, have been and are the greatest aggressor in the modern
> history!
Please gimme a break and keep such facts with you only! I know China was clearly an aggressor at least on TWO-CLEAR counts, ignoring Vietnam and Korea (here meddling was the issue, not aggressor).
#1 China has cheated India even after friendly agreement or Panchasheel (maybe any Indian can add more details here). Those days Mao clearly deceived & cheated Nehru. India was made to believe Chinese, eventually India paid a heavy price for doing that big mistake. Now, they won't do the same mistakes, if anyone can stop China in ASIA it will be India! Get ready for them. And, my proofs are my *archives*, don't try to put a defiant and stupid YES, which Chinese do it most of the times!
#2 China continues to occupy India's Kashmir, which it has NO right, according to my knowledge. Who property is Aksai-Chin? Who is Pakistan to gift India's land and who is China to take and occupy the same? I have learned China now disturbing India's North-Eastern states like Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim. And they are trying to threaten India by increasing border patrols aggressively. Do you have any answers?
Tell me something. Does Chinese think that they can threaten India in the 21st century's nuke age? Just try to imagine China without Russia on its side for most of its requirements. Period.
@ Openyoureyes
> How much do you people know about Chinese history or Tibet history?
> How do you know what's better for China or Tibet?
Are you asking the content writer or people here? I can give you tons of info here based on my *achives* and other *sources* which I can't disclose!
> Feel lucky that Indians haven’t asked for their independence or their
> land back. Remember when you point finger to others, the other three
> are pointing back to yourself!!
Yes, you make sense here! I meant the same in my responses to Alex and Biowizard. There is one simple saying which is very enlightening:
'if y beat x today, z will beat y tomorrow!'
Hope all these silly morons put some thoughts on that saying and progress for a better world. If you want to fight, there are dozens of issues on this planet, like education, poverty and most importantly planet got screwed up with Global Warming! Think on those lines!!
Hi, folks. Shut up and listen. No more cheap talks. No more stupid dialogue. It's time for us to DO something now.
The U.S. should stand up for Tibetans and show the world that we are the true leader of freedom and democracy. We at the very least should re-open the CIA military training camp for the Dalai Lama's resistance fighters at Camp Hale near Leadville, Colorado. His Holiness Dalai Lama worked for the CIA in 1950's-1970's. It's time for us to reward a long time friend and his followers.
We can ask Japanese to financially support the Free Tibet operation. The Dalai Lama loves Japanese people. He enthusiastically endorsed a Japanese spiritual movement, 'Aum Shinrikyo', in 1980's-1990's.
We can also ask Germany for some substantial support from Europe. Germans had deep connections with Tibet in 1930's and 1940's. The Dalai Lama's tutor in 1940's was Heinrich Harrer, a member of the 'Schutzstaffel'. These people are closely linked together. We can form a huge coalition force for sure to change Tibet back to Shangri-La.
We can't wait for any longer. Let's all dream together for a
Free Tibet!
Wanting to bring cold war imperialist strategies that failed even back when America was strongest 60 years ago is the most inane idea I have ever heard.
As if we have not learned anything from our past mistakes.
Fact is, the Dalai Lama is a joke, cares more about his return to power than his people.
If Americans want to lead the world they had best start back home and lead by example rather than to promote war. Instead of wiretapping without warrants and consolidation of the media and arresting protesters like we did ant the Republican National convention 4 years ago we should be stopping the mergers of big business media conglomerates, encouraging freedom of the press and letting those that criticize the government have a voice. And stop torturing prisoners and holding them without trial.
Americans should set an example back home and should not be supporting terrorists like the Dalai Lama.
Akula2:
I don't know enough about Kashmir to dispute what you said, but I do know most people in Kashmir would rather not be part of India if they could. I don't believe they should have the right to secede, just as I don't believe Tibetans should have the right to secede. I make no bones about benefiting from China's development and increased commercial ties with America. I think engagement and development is the best course for China to become more democratic.
As for the relations between India and China, I think there is a great deal of mutual suspicion. As both countries become more rational and more focused on improving people's living standards, the relationship with improve. If India choose to support Tibetan's right to secede, it will greatly increase China's suspicion. Fortunately that's not the position of the Indian government. Remember China-India relation was great, but then there was the Tibetan uprising. Once Nehru decided to give refuge to Dalai Lama, everything soured and eventually the countries went to war. I think both China and India are finally acting rationally and focusing on economic issues.
I see no point in arguing with someone who lacks so much knowledge of the topic that his arguments are no longer credible...actually going to the point of calling the Dalai Lama and his Buddhist followers 'terrorists'...hahahahaha oh my gosh...such ignorance and idiocy.
The Dalai Lama is a terrorist because he supported an uprising by his people with arms and attacked the government of China that had supported him and his people's rights.
With funding and training by the CIA in Samoa and Colorado these terrorist fighters were defeated by the Chinese Army and went into hiding in India where to this day they have been fomenting terrorist activities that resulted in the killing of innocent civilians, burning and looting of stores and anarchy and chaos in China.
That is why the Dalai Lama is considered a terrorist by the vast majority of Chinese and many others like myself.
The Chinese government calling the Dalai Lama a terrorist...go figure.
It's interesting how it's only you, few others like you, and the Chinese government see the Dalai Lama as a terrorist, while I, many others like me, and many of the rest of the world see him as a great spiritual person, who always promote peace and harmony, which are 2 of the biggest things that Buddhism teaches.
Oh and to your comment about the Tibetan forces fighting the Chinese army. Well...if there's an aggressive foreign army coming into your territory, what do you expect them to do? just stand there and wave? Tibet had no military, which was why they seeked the support of Western nations, to supply and train them to fend off the Chinese army. That's just common sense. If I come to your house with a gun, are you going to just sit there, let me go in, and do whatever I want? And if you arm yourself to defend against me, does that make you a terrorist?
THINK.
You should obey him absolutely, and have your family practice the mystical art of Tantric with his followers. yes, it will last forever.
IDIOT
China had no legitimate excuse to invade Tibet. It gave two excuses for it. First of all, it said that it was liberating Tibetans from slavery, and from foreign domination. There is no evidence to support the claim of slavery, and the only foreign domination was in the form of pressure from China.
Secondly, it said that Tibet was always a part of China. This was never the case. From time to time, Tibet was an unwilling part of the Chinese empire, but it was never actually Chinese. Other imperialist powers have now let their empires go. It is time for Imperialist China to do the same.
Whether Tibet was always part of China is debatable, but the demographic reality is there are millions of Chinese of multiple ethnicities in Tibet now. That's called 'facts on the ground' in the Israel-Palestine context. Looks like Israel will hold on to their settlements in Palestine in any future peace settlements. With the backing of America, the world has not even been able to force the withdraw of Israel, so good luck forcing China to give Tibet more autonomy. A more realistic course is stop rioting and focus on improving the lives of ordinary Tibetans. If people choose to put their head in the sand and call for totally unrealistic goal of Tibetan independence or quasi-independence, the only net result is less freedom for Tibetans and even more anti-western sentiments in China.
First the Chinese never invaded Tibet. The Dalai Lama was part of the Chinese government and recognized as a political leader of the region before he conspired the the CIA and tried an failed coup/uprising against Chinese authorities.
So there was no need to repel an invading Chinese Army, the Chinese Army only came to Tibet in the late 1950's after terrorist activities and armed insurrection by Tibetan seperatists funded with arms and explosives and trained by the CIA in Samoa, and Colorado (camp Hale near Leadville).
As far as slavery in Tibet that the Dalai Lama serfdom supported and existed in Tibetan culture far back there are some great pictures at newschecker.blogspot.com. Go to the bottom of the website and see the arrticle from Oct 21, 'Dalai Lama, hero in the western world', with pictures of babies skinned and made into toys and drums, pictures of Tibetans with their eyes gouged out for not following their Tibetan buddhist masters orders. Stocks and chains for keeping Tibetan slaves to be managed and controlled by the Tibetan buddhist masters. All under the supervision of the Dalai Lama. What a great peace loving beatnik guy. These Tibetan buddhists spit and piss on the venerable Buddha and have taken this great spiritual leaders teachings and blasphemed them for their own personal benefit.
The Dalai Lama is nothing more than a manipulator of public opinion and will say and do whatever is necessary to keep himself in the public spotlight to help him return to power.
Zephon, where do you get your facts from? Of course Tibet was invaded in 1950, at about a half a dozen points in the Tibetan province of Kham. Chamdo, the provincal capital, was captured shortly thereafter. Tibet did have an army, a rather poor one, that lost perhaps 5,000 soldiers to the advancing PLA troops. After seizing a good chunk of eastern Tibet, China forced the Lhasa government's representatives to sign the infamous 17 point agreement under duress while they were negotiating in Beijing. Tibet had no choice but to capitulate to Chinas demands, as the world was not willing to help her fight China. Most powers of significance were exhausted by WWII and India's Nehru foolishly believed that China would be a benevolent power and not overly abuse Tibet, so he sacrificed Tibet for his ultimately doomed 'Panch Shil' policy. In so doing, he left India prey to border 'disputes' with China, India's new neighbor, that remain as threats to India's territorial integrity to this day.
As for the CIA's involvment, it was a minor distraction in the struggle for Tibet's freedom, basically Tibetan guerilla fighters took help from wherever they could get it. The help was small and woefully short of what was needed to seriously confront the Chinese occupation forces. The USA was never serious about liberating Tibet from China, had it been serious at the time, China would not be in Tibet today.
Don't get all cranky and rant on about Western media, Chinese values, other countries failings, etc, maybe the Tibetans are protesting and even rioting sometimes because China has been so mean to them for so very long. Yes, they are not grateful for your 'liberation'. They never asked for it. Yes, they are disgusted and angry about the disrepect that Han chauvanism displays to their national history, culture, language, and religion. And for the one who keeps wondering about how would a free Tibet manage its infrastructure and feed itself, well just like any other nation does. After all, the only really calamitous famine in Tibet's two thousand year history was the one Mao brought to Tibet (and China as well) in the early 1960's. No amount of material stuff (most of which is enjoyed by the Han settlers anyway) can make up for the murder of over a million Tibetans since 1950 by Chinese forces and Chinese policies in Tibet. Many Chinese think of Tibetans as ungrateful for what China has done for them, maybe they need to think about why Tibetans seem so ungrateful. Perhaps the history they learn in China about Tibet is as full of lies as what the Soviets taught their captive nations about their place and history in that failed empire.
Tibet was never invaded by the Chinese.
Tibet first became a part of China during the mongol dynasty of China in about the year 1239.
It was not until 1569 that the Dalai Lama lineage came into existence under Chinese rule. That lasted until the current Dalai Lama supported armed insurrection against Chinese rule. Of course they capitulated to the superior Chinese army in the 1950s. If the Dalai Lama was intelligent and caring for his people he would never have supported the failed CIA backed uprising. At the time China had many problems due to the famine of the cultural revolution and the need to manage an back woods province like Tibet was not on their mind.
But the Chinese would never let the province of China go to foreign governments especially as the Dalai Lama's goal of complete independence of Tibet through military conquest with American CIA backing.
This is somewhat a continuation of the British colonial power, India, that invaded Tibet and tried to establish Tibet as part of India in 1904-1911. When the British/India invasion got to Lhasa the Dalai Lama at the time fled to Urgu which was part of China at the time but is now part of Mongolia.
Tibet was confirmed as a part of China by a Sino-British treaty in 1906 by which the 'Government of Great Britain engages not to annex Tibetan territory or to interfere in the administration of Tibet. The Government of China also undertakes not to permit any other foreign State to interfere with the territory or internal administration of Tibet.' Moreover, Beijing agreed to pay London 2.5 million rupees - Britain and Russia agreed that in 'conformity with the admitted principle of the suzerainty of China over Tibet both nations 'engage not to enter into negotiations regarding Tibet except through the intermediary of the Chinese Government.'
Stop buying chinese good and products, no amount of state censoring or idiotic lies of the pro China posters here can stop or lie about that. I already have.
Thing that makes me laugh is the stupid propaganda posted here about how nice China is being about all this. Guys, stop it, you live or were educated in dictatorships, you had to beleive the crap they fed you, the rest of us don't.
First I was born an American Citizen and raised in the United States and have an education from the finest universities this world provides. So don't label me as from china or being Chinese.
Next, China is not a dictatorship as some unknowingly want to believe the propaganda and media here in the USA. The peoples national congress is elected to 5 year terms. The elections are by a electoral system very similar to the American electoral college that selects the President of the US.
For more information read: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_People's_Congress
One of the reasons for the lack of response from the Chinese government to the violence from the Tibetan buddhists is because Tibetan government officials were meeting at the time in Beijing at their congress. Local authorities did not have weapons and could not quell the violence against innocent civilians because they do not have the training or weapons needed to do so. It took several days to bring in special military police units to the scene that then the violent protesters were able to be arrested for their crimes.
The Chinese people are furious at the lack of response and expect that this violence will be met with much more force next time. Much different expectation than that of the pro-Tibetan western media expectations. I expect the Chinese government will side with the majority of Chinese and use more force rather than less. After all it is a democracy. I only hope that the Tibetan Buddhist leaders can get some sense and find a more peaceful path rather than go against Buddha's wishes of peace and harmony that is so central to Chinese culture.
As well do not forget that all nationally recognized ethnic minorities in China, including Tibetans get special privileges in China, including social welfare (basically a monthly stipend), advanced placement in higher education, etc...
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