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Catholic League condemns 'The Golden Compass'
By Mary McSweeney Oct 13, 2007, 23:22 GMT
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Why is it okay for Christians to proselytize but it's not okay for atheists, freethinkers and humanists to encourage kids to question and to doubt?
I sure would rather my grandchildren be offered something that encourages them to think critically than to be spoon fed dogma and expected to accept it without question.
It's never too early to teach kids to think for themselves.
To be honest with you, I didn't know about the atheist agenda of the author. But now that you've informed me, I can't wait to buy the box set of books for my grandchildren.
They will undoubtedly offer more than the Jesus dolls in stores for Christmas giving.
Nicole Kidman made the comment that they watered down the religious tone of Golden Compass for the movie and that she would never have done it if the movie were anti-Catholic. She obviously hasn't read the entire serious of books. If they are going to water down the religious tone of the third book, there won't be a movie. When I read these books, I had no idea what they would involve. I had no idea about Pullman's views. After barely being able to finish the third book, it was perfectly clear what Pullman's views are. It's not something I would recommend to kids. How this book has won children's literature awards, I will never understand.
Children thinking for themselves? So, I take it that you will allow them to decide about whether it is OK to rape, steal and murder. Also, if they decide that they do not want to go to the dentist and the doctor, that is fine as well. How far open does your mind have to be until your brains fall out? Parents are there to give their young ones guidance in all things, especially spiritual ones. Giving them the license to choose any system of belief they might come into contact with is a recipe for disaster, you can see the evidence of that in our society. We have fostered a generation of latchkey kids who have no one at home to turn to when the tragedies of life hit them like a tidal wave, and we have given them no God, no morality of any kind, only a cold and brutal relativism. We as adults have stood by while they are aborted, abused, and murdered at will, many times by those who should protect them most.Our Divine Creator gave us free will, but He also gave us ten commandments and the Bible. God help us if atheism is the best we can do for these innocents, who deserve the very, very best.
Well theres always plenty of paedophile priests who go around dioceses unpunished, because the Slush Fund buys off the parents, and prevents the satanic perverts from going to jail........
Once again, we are judged by the PC crowd (which is quite SMALL), assuming that we are all going to think like them, because they have all tried SO HARD to make us think that they are 'normal' and we, who are Christians (maybe even evangelical) are not. Well, Hollywood, we are not going to buy your attempt to pervert reality by using your biggest voice, the movies, to tell us that we all believe a lie. If you don't accept that there is a God, it's YOUR LOSS! We do care that you might burn in Hell for not accepting Christ, but we certainly can't MAKE you do it! Just don't think that you can con US into questioning our God, by using your closed-minded standards to cast judgement on our judgement.
Don't even worry about understanding all that, you might get it later. Try praying, it might help.
To 'VRuskin', who seems to be trying to equate teaching children critical thinking with rape, theft and murder - please stop with the tired old strawman arguments. That poor horse died a long time ago.
If you want to subject your children to a wishful-thinking, violent Medieval worldview that ignores things like observable reality and actively subverts any attempt at free enquiry - I'm saddened to say that is, currently, your perogative. I can only hope that in the coming years, as religion becomes even less relevant and our knowledge of the universe even more detailed, that your child does not suffer too much humiliation and can eventually learn to think for him/herself despite your efforts to prevent that.
'His Dark Materials' is a well-written work of _fiction_ that doesn't pretend to be anything else. 'The Bible' is a badly written, ill-informed, mis-translated work of fiction that attempts to tell people things about the nature of the universe that it has not one scrap of evidence for. It is simply a tool of control, based on fear of the unknown.
To 'Objectively Christian' - I love the oxymoronic name. You speak of perverting reality, and of atheists being closed-minded. I suggest you consult a dictionary for the definition of 'irony'.
I find it both amusing and saddening when I see grown human beings getting so worked up over people questioning god/allah/brahman/L. Ron Hubbard* (delete as applicable to your particular delusion). It only serves to prove further how shaky the foundations of unfounded belief are, when presented with something as horribly scary as independent thought.
I don't see what the big deal is. If you are raising your kids right they will know that this is fantasy and not reality. If my kids want to see this movie, I will take them. What ever happened to teaching your kids morals and values. My children know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad, and they also know what the word fiction means. Children are not babies, take them off the teat and have a real discussions with them.
It's odd that the series is considered anti-Catholic. In Pullman's parallel universe, Calvin reigns as Pope. If anything, the book shows the negative aspects of Calvinism. As I understand, Pullman's own grandfather was an Anglican priest. No doubt he grew up seeing hypocrisy in the religious denomination to which he was exposed, whether it was Church of England or the streak of Calvinism that exists in some forms of Protestantism. Those raised Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran could easily tell like stories of behavior exhibited by co-religionists that was contrary to the Gospel message of Jesus. Please, God and Mr. Pullman, save us from the santimonious and self-righteous who worship at your altars!
I am of the protestant faith and I believe that this movie is disgusting. Is it the right of Hollywood to tell our children that God does not exist? When are we as Christians going to say enough is enough? God will prove himself to these atheists and the truth is, if they do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior they will go to hell. We as parents are to protect our children from the world and keep their minds innocent as long as we can. They are Gods precious gifts to us. Churches of all Christian denominations need to ban together and boycott this movie.
Churches of all Christian denominations need to ban together and boycott this movie.
I could not have said it better. We have to start taking responsibility for allowing this to go on as long has it has and some point stop supporting this trash. If in music or movies it's time to starting telling these kids NO IT'S NOT OK TO SEE THIS OR LISTEN TO THAT. We are the parents and not their friend trying to make them happy at the same time supporting this trash that is in our faces.
To many on this thread:
I offer an apology for when Christians have acted like they are perfect and spoken as if atheists are idiots... both things are clearly not the truth.
There are more apologies to give, but too many to list.
JesusFollower has it right. And the person screaming that those who do not accept God (meaning her version of a monster God who kills those who do not accept Him) has it completely wrong (these are the same ones who claim Catholics are not Christian). Truth be told, I've met many fine atheists and agnostics who act as though they know the Lord, even though they may not. These are the ones who'll have the first invitation to Paradise. As for threatening Christian fundamentalists, these ideological extremists cannot be allowed to speak for everyone, anymore than Islamic terrorists speak for the average Muslim.
Pullman you are great! I do not understand why catholics try so hard to defend their ideias, i think they are scared of losing the money thay people gives them every year. They are a bunch of liers and do not care about the destiny of our sould or all that crap. All they want is your noney! If Catholic league wanted to help us, they would not been charging 5 dolars for their booklet that explains why this books are wrong, they could just simply put it in their site.
I really enjoyed this book series. It was very imaginative. I will definatly be seeing this movie and taking my 2 older boys. This make believe story is very fun and entertaining. The authors personal beliefs do not change mine. And my children can understand fiction. They saw Transformers but they don't believe in robots taking over earth.
Luingirl, the Catholic League does not speak for all Catholics. So your comments are off the mark. But the real idiocy of the complaints is that Pullman's 'church' in his story is a Protestant one with Nicole Kidman playing a highly influential churchwoman, much the kind one would suspect might be active in British Anglican circles. Hmm, maybe this means that Protestants, particularly those of the Calvinist stripe, might be getting upset about the series. It seems, at the moment, the only ones screaming are evangelical Prots and ultra-conservative Catholics (and then the occasional anti-Catholic bigot like yourself).
Really, what is with all these people who r so nonchalant about such an important issue? We as a society need to open our eyes and stop being so ignorant and desensitized to the media and what they throw out to us, more specifically our children. We can be part of the solution-- or the problem for that matter. There is much more than you know in these movies. Ex. Did you know Harry Potter was based on homosexuality? KNOW what your kids are watching! This one is even worse! Not saying good or bad, but enough is enough, right? :)
mskate8Oct 30th, 2007 - 06:26:17 writes:
> We as a society need to open our eyes and stop being so ignorant and desensitized to the media and what they throw out to us, more specifically our children.
It seems to me the 'media' has nothing to do with 'throwing anything out at us' but in reporting objections by religious groups (i.e. ultra conservative Catholics and evangelical Christians) to a story written by someone who obviously is utilizing and reacting to hypocrisy he experienced growing up in a Christian/Anglican/Calvinist Protestant family.
>We can be part of the solution-- or the problem for that matter. There >is much more than you know in these movies. Ex. Did you know Harry >Potter was based on homosexuality?
Utter stupidity. From a an author's admission that a character was gay to your claim that Harry Potter is based on homosexualtiy is a far stretch and shows you are in dire need of perspective and critical thinking skills.
And what is wrong about Homosexuality?
The books and the films are for those who want to watch and read them, and everyone should be free to choose what they want. If some people think it is bad or wrong they should respect the others who like it.
And this trilogy is just great, i learned to look at the universe with diferent eyes, i can now stand alone and face the truth of being and insignificant being in a insignificant planet in this imense universe.
To Elf- You could not have said it better. Heidi, quick, remove all televisions, newspapers, computers and books from your house. For the love of Pete, your children just might run into reality.
As a Catholic my big problem with Pullman is that unlike Hitchinns,Hariss or Dawkins he single's Christanity out. At a time where historical evidence is Solidifying the reliability of the Gospel's and subsequently the historicy of the Resurection, it is sad to see that Athiests have to resort to back-door tactics like producing this film.
You've lots Athiests, admit it, people are comming back to Rome from a lifetime of misery propogated by Hitchins,Dawkins and Harris, you can know forgiveness to if you'll just come of you high horse and admit your wrong.
How very SAD those of you that do not know Jesus and his word. Because if by chance you had any idea just how powerful and mighty he is you would change how you think. Just where do you think your existance came from? A monkey!! If it was'nt for our Lord we would not be here. I would like to see that monkey create the world that we live on today. I can't hardly wait when our Creator comes to take us home, the look on your poor souls face! And if by chance you could read the Bible you then would know that He is a very loving and forgiving God and he will forgive you. And if you do come across a Bible try to find John 3:16. thats a good start for you! Oh and maybe Genisis 1:1
Heidi, you ask, 'Is it the right of Hollywood to tell our children that God does not exist?'
I ask, 'Is it the right of Hollywood to tell our children that god DOES exist?
I'm thinking of the very worst propaganda movie of all time. 'The Passion of the Christ'.
I am an atheist, however if my kids wanted to see that idiotic movie, I would let them. Then we would discuss how the movie is presents the dogma of Christian faith.
THAT is the parents responsibility. To help kids sort things out and to determine what's baloney and what's feasible.
Parents who expose their kids only to dogma are irresponsible whether they are Christians or atheists. Yes, atheists should tell their children about Christian dogma. It's part of our culture and kids should know what many believe.
I quote H. B. Hodges, 'Enjoy fantacy, believe it not.'
Marilyn LaCourt
YES! we as parents should tell our children the truth. But obviously some of you don't! You have already formed your on opinion on religion and your only going to express that to their vulnerable minds. Therfore their brainwashed to beleive with how they are raised. So what chance do they have! It is less of a challenge to be a atheist and take the easy way out, then it is to stand up for the truth and have something to believe in. What COWARDS! The world is so afraid to speak up and have a backbone. OH My Gosh! what would the neighbors say if they saw you get up and go to church. Come on people! Im with CLITTLE, and all they other Believers of Christ. He will come one day and for you it will be to late, then what are you going to tell your children, 'Sorry Billy i was mistaken' as your walking to the gates of hell. How sad. What a waste.
I, for one, am tempted to go back and correct the multitude of grammar, spelling, and syntax errors in a good number of the postings above. Why does it seem that the more zealous proselytizers commit the more egregious errors? Please don't tell me these are the ones home-schooling their children.
I am a Christian, a Roman Catholic in fact, but I love this series none the less. Have any of you read this book you are criticizing? In The Amber Spy Glass God is not killed, but rather a figure called the Authority. This figure is the figurehead of a church reminiscent of the crusades or perhaps similar to the radical Muslims of today. The church hopes to extinguish original sin by means of torturing children and removing their spirit.
None of the main characters in His Dark Materials would go to hell. No benevolent god would allow it. The characters show love, compassion, kindness, wisdom, and so many other true Christian traits. My God would not banish a kind Muslim, nor an atheist, nor a Buddhist, nor ever a Hindu to hell. Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the life” and by following Him we will be saved, but do we need to know that we are following him? Must we have a destination in mind for our path to be true? Isn’t it possible to be good without being good \because\ Jesus taught us to? If there is a life after death then it is important to exhibit kindness because it will allow us to find a place there. If there is no life after death then it is even more important to be kind because how can we allow anyone to live in pain when there is nothing for them when the pain has ended? To do so would be sin beyond all other sin, regardless of what laws say. God is love, therefore those who fight for love, fight for God, even if they see His face in a different light.
The novel is really telling us that, regardless of whether or not God exists or Christianity is correct, we need to stop looking for a future after death and see what we have NOW. Dust is not sin, but wisdom. Oftentimes wisdom interferes with doctrine and this causes confusion and fear, but it is through wisdom that humanity continues to learn and grow. We live in an amazing world and we should not lose sight of it for fear of the beyond. You don’t believe me of course, but I will try in vain to open your minds. Don’t worry I will stop long before your brains fall out. This is a quote taken from Pullman himself:
'I want to open people's eyes if I can, and their hearts and their minds to the extraordinary fact that we're alive in this world, which, although it is full of rain and mud, is nevertheless extraordinary and wonderful. And the more you explore it and discover about it -- scientifically, imaginatively, artistically -- the more wonderful and extraordinary it becomes.'
“After barely being able to finish the third book, it was perfectly clear what Pullman's views are. It's not something I would recommend to kids. How this book has won children's literature awards, I will never understand.”
Kathy, so perfectly clear you say? Don’t look at such wide a view through such a narrow lens. Life is too deep for perfect clarity.
“Children thinking for themselves? So, I take it that you will allow them to decide about whether it is OK to rape, steal and murder.”
VRuskin, Pullman is completely against all three of those things you listed. Why do you think he is angry with the church in the first place? He is upset about sanctioned murder, buying a place in heaven, and the hypocrisy of priests convicted of sexual assault. I can’t say I’m proud of the Church’s past either. That doesn’t prevent me from trying to change things for the better.
“Well theres always plenty of paedophile priests who go around dioceses unpunished, because the Slush Fund buys off the parents, and prevents the satanic perverts from going to jail........”
Cynic, ahh the brilliant point you could have made if only you saw fit to word this less insultingly.
“Well, Hollywood, we are not going to buy your attempt to pervert reality by using your biggest voice, the movies, to tell us that we all believe a lie.”
Objectively Christian, I’m pretty sure Hollywood is just out to make money. Not admirable for sure, but not an attempt to tell us we believe in a lie. Pullman is the one who thinks we believe in a lie, and if we wish to remedy the situation we must prove our worth. We need to show what it means to be a Christian so clearly no one will be confused and see our works as shallow.
“'The Bible' is a badly written, ill-informed, mis-translated work of fiction that attempts to tell people things about the nature of the universe that it has not one scrap of evidence for.”
Elf, I must agree on the ill-informed part (after all, how long ago was the Bible written? they knew nothing about science!) but the poorly written part is incorrect. The Bible is an amazing work to be sure. It along with the Koran, The Epic of Gilgamesh, and other such works began the literary tradition. Literature is a fantastic thing and such beautiful old examples of literature should be treasured, regardless of religious convictions.
“God will prove himself to these atheists and the truth is, if they do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior they will go to hell.”
Heidi, err no. What was the point of Jesus dying on the cross to save us if we still have to be perfect ultimate beings of good and light to get into heaven? If you want to embrace God’s teachings please embrace them all, not only those that make you feel superior.
“We have to start taking responsibility for allowing this to go on as long has it has and some point stop supporting this trash. If in music or movies it's time to starting telling these kids NO IT'S NOT OK TO SEE THIS OR LISTEN TO THAT.”
Mom, don’t ever call literature trash, especially when it isn’t true. The scope of His Dark Materials is incredible and even those who disagree with the author’s views should see the merit of this work. You also need to realize that Pullman is not telling your children to do anything amoral unlike the music I’m sure you are referring to. Please take the time to read some interviews with the author.
“I do not understand why Catholics try so hard to defend their ideas, I think they are scared of losing the money they people gives them every year. They are a bunch of liars and do not care about the destiny of our soul or all that crap.”
LuinGil, I’m very sorry you feel this way. I would love nothing more than to dispute this, except I’m just one Catholic and I cannot speak for the rest of them. I’d like to think I’m not a liar, and I wish I could care about the destiny of every soul, but unfortunately my heart is just not big enough. The more I think about all those who suffer the more I am lost in the enormity until I cannot see the trees but for the forest. In the end I can only do my best for those whom I can touch. I hope you will forgive me my limitations.
“Did you know Harry Potter was based on homosexuality?”
Mskate8, what does that sentence even mean? Harry Potter isn’t any more homosexual then a rock. You really must do your research.
“As a Catholic my big problem with Pullman is that unlike Hitchinns,Hariss or Dawkins he single's Christanity out.”
Jack, I love you for your sensibility. There is a reason he singled Christianity out. Please read this quote: “It's not just Christianity I'm getting at. The reason that the forms of religion in the books seem to be Christian is because that's the world I'm familiar with. That's the world I grew up in and I knew. If I had been brought up as an orthodox Jew, I would no doubt find things to criticize in that religion. But I don't know that world as well as I know Christianity.” I’m sure you are still upset, but that is completely reasonable. I can only ask for you to try and understand where the author is coming from. Empathy is a wonderful human quality.
“I can't hardly wait when our Creator comes to take us home, the look on your poor souls face! And if by chance you could read the Bible you then would know that He is a very loving and forgiving God and he will forgive you.”
Clittle, I do not enjoy hearing of your hypocrisy. No benevolent loving god would do such a thing. The God you worship must be very different from mine.
“THAT is the parent’s responsibility. To help kids sort things out and to determine what's baloney and what's feasible.”
Marilyn LaCourt, a clever point to be sure, but in the future please don’t insinuate my religion is baloney quite so heavily. If you truly want your children to decide what they believe for themselves it is important to limit the bias in your tone when explaining Christian “dogma”.
'He will come one day and for you it will be to late, then what are you going to tell your children, 'Sorry Billy i was mistaken' as your walking to the gates of hell. How sad. What a waste.'
Ah, “Believer in the truth” what makes your truth so much better than theirs?
And finally, Fanfandorin, I am eternally grateful for you sense when faced with such adversity. It is very admirable.
Christian fan, I love how you sorted out the many hypocracys and offensive, false cooments placed by christians and even some aethists alike. To those who still have closed minds, note that I, a radical aethist in the extreme, am congradulating a christian! When has that ever occured in this violant dipute website? I am highly criticle of Clitte, (whatever kind of name that is) and Objectively Christian. Please guys, have some moral integrity and an open mind. Christian Fan made me consider catholicism much more efectively than criticl comments.
If people would take time to study the history of the Roman Catholic church, they would find them guilty of much greater things then producing a movie which doesn't coincide with their way of thinking. If the church were still a power, it would just be to bad for the Author...
I wonder how many people have died in the name of god.
I know, lets compare how many people have died in the name of god, or been tortured vs, oh, lets say Buddhism.
I can't say they're is or isn't a god, but if he/she is up there, I'd have to imagine he's looking down on the 'Christians' wondering how it all went to wrong.
First off, I know there is freedom of speech, press, religion and all that stuff. And I'm not saying that it is wrong to write a book about that stuff, but a childrens book???!!! I mean, come on! I also think that they should not be making a movie on this book. I think this book and movie is soooo wrong. I am very appaled what society has come to.
I like films that claim that God does exist, and that he looks and acts like Morgan Freeman (or George Burns, or Alanis Morrisette). Also, it seems to me that the anti-Golden Compass posters must have had an advance viewing. I know that the movie isn't out yet, but it's already labeled 'disgusting'.
I think that we all need to remember that religion and morality/values can be two separate entities. Just becasue one is not a Christian, does not mean that they are without morals. It's not a 'You're either with us or against us' world. We're all in this together. Keep your Gods and beliefs in your church and homes. Let others make their own decisions.
To the Catholic League in response to the article on The Golden Compass Boycott:
For a group who’s motto is “For Religious and Civil Rights,” you don’t seem to be open-minded about others religious rights and seem really only to be “for” the rights of yourself and those who are like minded. The great thing about the US is the rights in the freedoms of the First Amendment including Speech, Religion and Protest. To use your right of Protest and boycott against some one’s freedom of speech makes no sense to me. Maybe you could explain.
Now according to your article, you act as if Pullman has created these books for the sole propose of converting young children to atheism. I think he has written them for the children’s enjoyment of reading, imagination and learning. To take away reading, learning and imagination from our children, I’m sure we can both agree, would be a horrible thing (or at least I would hope you would agree). If these books are anything like the Harry Potters series and encourage kids to read instead of playing video games and watching cartoons, I think that is a major victory.
In the article you also mention that Pullman is a new kind of aggressive “dogmatic” atheist. This almost makes me laugh. How can atheism be dogmatic is beyond me, but to use it as a derogatory term as if Catholicism isn’t dogmatic is very funny. I hope you see the irony here, as well as the irony of calling atheism so hate filled and thinking atheist are trying to destroy Catholics. It seems that the purpose of this article and boycott is that in the same of the Catholics against atheists.
Gaining new knowledge and a little bit of enjoyment form a kid book has never hurt anyone. And if one’s faith is strong enough nothing should deter them from it. And even if it was Pullman’s intent to convert kids and anyone to atheism, why would this be any different from what most religions around the world do daily? From Mormons to Catholics to Muslims, missionary work, books and movies come out all the time to do just that…convert people to that “one true religion.” You never see a bunch of atheists protesting these books and movies afraid that their kids or they will be converted. This is because most atheists are in fact more understanding and open-minded then your group. Maybe you as the Catholic League should subscribe to your own motto a little more and be a group for Religious and Civil Rights of all people, including Muslims, Protestants, and even atheists.
Yes, it is indeed good for kids to think for themselves, to question, and to learn. That is quite a bit different from letting them make unguided decisions about raping, stealing, and murdering. Allowing them to think for themselves is not at all the same as allowing a moral free-for-all unchecked by parental input. Quite the opposite - Ithink that instilling in them proper values will lead them to the right choices in all situations, hopefully.
I think the most disturbing thing about the 'religionist' objection to this film and the books is the stifling of curiosity. Kids should wonder - people should wonder - about our world. This type of philosophical examination gets us to the unanswerable questions: Where did we come from (not just humans, but life on Earth), where do we go when life ends, and does it all, or any of it, have purpose and/or meaning? The first, well, maybe someday that could be answered, although I don't see it being answered anytime soon. Where do we go? Unanswerable - and any person or group that says they can answer that is lying. Perhaps There is a God; if so, he left that unanswerable on purpose, it would seem. Maybe it is so we would go forth and live our lives with choice, free will.
Religions tend to oppose that kind of thought. They tell you where we came from - implausibly, and impossibly - and they tell you what happens after life. If there is a God, I would think She/He would consider that the utmost
heresy, impudence, and downright arrogance.
Many Christians laugh abusively at the Muslims for their 'silly' notions about the afterlife, then see no hypocrisy when they put forth their own unknowable 'truths'.
As for meaning, I'm important to my family, and they to me, and that is more than enough to make me thankful for every day.
I won't stop my kids from watching or reading His Dark Materials or Narnia, and I hope they both spur good debate. Make them think. For themselves.
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