Yup... Hypocrites one and all! Especially Bush. 21st Century Father of all Liars!

Hypocricy is the best way to describe this situation. We as the sole voice letting Israel use excessive force in Lebanon (which was just two years ago, but we have seemed to forget), is in my opinion a automatic disqualification for us to try and attempt to call someone else out on the subject of excessive force, as if the Iraq war didn't do that already.

Russia as the main voice against the use of excessive force in Lebanon should of played their hand better as well, total hypocricy as well. I think I have read hundreds of articles since the fighting had begun and have yet to see a connection to the Israel- Lebanon war. Which I think is huge.

"Saakaskvili may yet use the invasion of Russian troops to rally the Georgian people
behind his cause to protect his position as leader..."

That sickens me, to protect his leadership he is trying to stir the pot more. To much pride in a group of people can cause them to do stupid things, again. The people who are old enough to remember the cold war era (im not) in Georgia know that it was stupid to poke a stick at Russia. The younger people will probably now want to do it again, atleast they will if they are contined to be stired with false pride. A strog and powerful Georgia will never beat Russia. Mabe a little honest truth to the younger Georgians.

Rich- I like your entry about Putin and Genocide with the Chechen's. I had forgotten all about that (once again too young, or too immuture to care).

I think in many ways it won't really be considered Hypocricy because well this in many ways is just politics, how ever disgusting that may sound. For some reason memory in politics is short.

I also think to say they are our allies because we want a buffer with Russia is also slightly slanted. There are many countries that buffer Russia, there are many countries that are worse off then Georgia, They are our allies because of the pipelines, and that in my opinion is the only reason we want them in NATO, so that pipeline is protected. If that pipeline was not there they would just be Africa to us.

I would hope that a Harvard educated president wouldn't of been so stupid to not realize why we like them, but I guess not.

Maybe the world as a whole should continue to poke a stick at Russia, maybe that will fix the problem.

I made a rference to the cold war era in my post, but I meant the Soviet Union era

Thanks folks for your interesting and insightful comments. Of course the "troubles" aren't over yet and it will be interesting to see if Putin/Medvedev are tempted to overplay their hand in this latest conflagration. For every Chechnya there is an Afghanistan for Russia is there not?

Be interested to hear your views on the effect the war has had on the U.S. domestic campaign for president. Has it given the more experienced McCain a "leg-up" or has Obama reacted well enough?

If they overplay then what? No one in Europe will stop them bcause they need Russia's oil. If we the US was going too then we would have already. No matter what anyone wants to say, Russia is once again a superpower and they play the part well. Does any other superpower care what the other countries say? No superpower wants to start a war with another superpower, or atleast they are very hesistant too (even if they are low on the superpower rankings), and a lot has to happen before (more then what happens in Georgia). If Russia desides to take out Georgias leadershp and instal someone in their favor, what will happen besides talking. Georgia itself doesn't matter only the pipeline that runs through Georgia. Once again as the country the overthrow the democratically elected president of Iran for oil do we have a say when another does it?

"Be interested to hear your views on the effect the war has had on the U.S. domestic campaign for president. Has it given the more experienced McCain a "leg-up" or has Obama reacted well enough?"

I personally don't think it matters, Most people who use International diplomacy (or absence of) as their deciding topic to choose the president,, have already choosen. The polling shifts more with domestic matters and issues. Both candidates have taken the position that they said they would in this war.

I personally don't think McCain really has an idea besides poke the stick at Russia more. You will always have a large section of voters who will always love the idea of the US being the hadcore don't mess with us country. I would say Reagan type's, but I think the current groups just take it to an idiotic level. (even Regan used diplomacy). I don't think McCain's soultion of kick Russia out of the G8 works in anyones benefit. If every idea you have makes the "enemy" more angrier then well...

No I'm not a fan of Obama either (probably vote for Bob Barr), but he gave blame to both Gerogia and Russia which is probably more right then McCain.

It doesn't matter, the only time the polling numbers seem to change is when talking about a domestic issue. The people who want to see Russia punished are already on McCains side, the people who want diplomacy are already on Obama's side.

I think the idea of experience and little experience has also already been decided on by people. That was considered more of an early topic. I think it's an Experience verses Judgement fight, or atleast thats what they call it. Kind of like how Rudd came to office atleast compared to your previous. Experience doesn't matter if all of your experience has led to bad judgement again and again.

Previous comment is Sean, Santa Barbara

Might be interersting to see how this plays now that the US and Poland are signing a deal for the missile defense program.

Russia and the US are both pretty pissed at each other. Reaction's out of anger are always bad... lets see what happens.

"when Georgia responded to intimidation and invaded..."
Rich; your not a very good propagandist. We all know it was Georgia that started this by its invasion and slaughter in Ossetia. Even Americans who were were there at the time reported that they were saved by the Russians and had to flee the Georgians. Only in the neoconservative looking-glass world can a blatant invasion and slaughter be deemed a defensive move. Hopefully, the people of Georgia will wake up, shake off their foriegn leadership and Israeli warmonger Temur Yakobashvili; and truly be free of foreign influence which is clearly a detriment to their nation. The only thing Georgia has proven is that they are under the influence of foreign powers and are being used as pawns of Israel and the US's neoconservative foreign policy. The truth is out there and a large majority are not being fooled by propagandist clap trap like your article.

Hello Shaun,

Your point is well-taken about Georgia being the sole instigator of the violence and I appreciate your interest. However at no stage was the article intended to be a "propagandist" piece for either side, just an attempt to be even handed and point out that hypocrisy - on all sides - is rife.

As you can see from the report's questioning of Saakashvili's criticisms of Russia's actions as being totally hypocritical, I was at no times defending his actions nor suggesting he wasn't to blame. However in the interests of fair play, the point that Georgians make - that they have responded to separatist provocations - whether true or false, needed to be included for balance.

You make some interesting points though, and again thanks for your contribution. I am considering taking the Georgian conflict further and covering how much it has affected American people's perceptions of the U.S. presidential candidates and would welcome your views on that.

Best

Rich

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"Only in the neoconservative looking-glass world can a blatant invasion and slaughter be deemed a defensive move. Hopefully, the people of Georgia will wake up, shake off their foriegn leadership and Israeli warmonger Temur Yakobashvili; and truly be free of foreign influence which is clearly a detriment to their nation. The only thing Georgia has proven is that they are under the influence of foreign powers and are being used as pawns of Israel and the US's neoconservative foreign policy. The truth is out there and a large majority are not being fooled by propagandist clap trap like your article."

And once again...someone, somewhere, somehow finds a way to blame the Jews for something YET AGAIN.

LOL.

By the way Rich, great article.
I literally laughed out loud when President Bush made his speech toward Russia about how "bullying is unacceptable in foreign policy in the 21st century."

And your thoughts about Putin and Chechnya were also the first things that came to my mind about Putin's accusations of genocide toward Georgia.

It is unfortunate that in all of this, we do not see any news media report the general sentiment of the Georgian people toward any of this. Of course they must be afraid for their lives against Russian invasion, but how do they feel about the way their government and president are handling the situation? After all, with all the righteous rhetoric about democracy and sovereignty, the Georgian people's opinions should matter.

How about a related article on the Defense shield and the Russia-US opinion of that?

I think if you live in the US you could understand how much presidential bs we are subjected too, especially when there are people dying all over the world and these people currently have no power to actually do anything. All opinions from the candidates are already set, you can just google a topic and find their stance on it.

C'mon your one of the first writers that i've seen on a major blog / news organization that is actually willing to defend and reply... give a article that can we can really sink our teeths into....(sorry, i'm writing as if i'm talking on everyones behalf, this is just my opinion though.)

Thanks for your comments Dave, the Georgian peoples' opinion will indeed matter and it will be interesting to see if the Saakashvili is successful in using the Russian retaliation as a rallying point. Also do you think many in NATO may be ready to ditch their support for the man who nearly brought them to the brink of war with the all-powerful Russia?

Hey Sean,

Your comments are, as always, thought-provoking and I like the idea of an article on the Defence Shield and how it relates to US/Russia relations. Thanks for the idea.

Watch this space!

Quite the contrary, Rich. This is NATO's prime moment to show that it as an organization is not yet obsolete.
And I hope you were being sarcastic or lighthearted with your "all-powerful Russia" comment.

Turkey and Poland, for example, are NATO member states whose locations are clearly not in the North Atlantic. Incorporating them into the NATO "family" has deterred Russia from taking any subversive actions toward those governments in the past. In contrast, the Ukraine is NOT a NATO member state, and the Russian Intelligence Service poisoned their rightfully elected leader!

If NATO decides to induct Georgia into the NATO family, it would be even more of a deterrent to Russia to continue their course of action. However that would confirm the Russian mode of thought that NATO continues to work to contain them, which I seriously doubt is their main objective nowadays.

The President of my country (Bush) DID make one essentially correct statement in his speech made today published on the BBC: That a free, democratic Eastern Europe is more advantageous to Russia today in the interest of free market economic opportunities that can lead to mutual cooperation between East and West.

On the flip side, NATO probably would want to wait before accepting Georgia's membership into its organization, for fear of Georgia using NATO resources to perpetuate ethnic conflict in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

So I propose a reasonable deal:
If Georgia hands over South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Russia and evacuates anyone who wishes to remain a Georgian citizen from those regions, NATO lets Georgia become a member state. In this way, the MAJORITY of the people of the breakaway regions get what they want: separation from Georgia, and Georgia gets its NATO membership. This would in fact cripple Russia's need to be occupying Georgia in the first place. Any further Russian military action in Georgia after this agreement is sealed would be unwarranted and subject to reaction from NATO. Furthermore, continued violence started by Georgia would also be subject to investigation by NATO, as it is now a new member state.
Thus Georgia would be left a sovereign nation, now with the backing of legitimate western institution, the break away regions no longer have a reason to fight Georgia, and the Russian military would have no reason to stay in a sovereign NATO nation member.

Whadaya think?

Interesting and precise comments Dave.

How your well-thought-out (and to my mind fair)peace plan will unfold with Russia seemingly doing all it can to prevent further NATO expansion is probably the key though. I think part of the Putin-led muscle-flexing over the last week has been to show US/Europe that it is still in charge in the region it calls its "near abroad".

I do really believe Russia is attempting itself as a major regional player again, if not its old self as a world power and I don't believe most NATO countries would back any aggression against the Russian Bear, hence my reference to the "all powerful" Russia (OK a bit tongue-in-cheek maybe!). Still as I say, your proposal sounds entirely reasonable to me.

Thanks for your interest.

I also agree with you about how Russia is attempting to restore itself in its former glory as a major regional and world power.
Thank you for your article, It was certainly thought-provoking, well documented, and well written.

Hello Dave, when the bombs rain down on Polands missile defence system I hope the citizens of Poland feel that it was worth being a USA stooge just like we in the UK, the system is designed not to protect Europe but you Americans. All power to Russia!

Waine, your statements generate lulz.

I am not a russian or do I support the use of military force to resolve all globale issues.However what i believe happened here is simple Mr.Saakashvili was arrogant border line stupid in this situation.What did him in was his ignorant jokes he made at the NATO meeting back in April at Putins expense.I think what we will see is a scale down of rhetoric from the western side over the next 2 weeks even if Russia never leaves.The defence shield is obviously intended to limit Russia this is clearly vissible by looking at a map.This shield will never be allowed to be in placed in Poland,Ukrain or Georgia ever.They will be bombed upon delivery.These placements should be put in cenral Europe as they would still protect western interests and still allow Russia a little breathing room.Why do some Nations believe its there way or no way?Both the Americans and the Russia's

Mr,Y.B Syed Hamid,said they are ridicule people,damage vehicles and attack,come on Y.B there are so many policeman on that important day,why don,t they arrested them red handed.why put the blame on PKR

I have this sneaking idea that Russia is not completely in control of its raggedy assed military. They don't wanna go back to their boring old bases in Russia, they want to stay, have fun lording it over the vanquished, and grab some more stuff.

Russia's military went from soldiers growing their own food and generals selling their tanks to plundering Georgia.

That little KGB monster Putin (Bush's dear, dear bosom buddy) doesn't dare say "recess is over" and put pressure on them to come back yet.

Meantime, all they accomplished is making bolshoi fools of themselves for all the world to see and remember. Unfortunately, Russia doesn't scare the whole world, only those who have suffered under their barbaric rule.

Maybe it's time to put Russia back in its place, see if they still want to play the MAD game.

Spitfire

The money lover worshippers cult is about to die 2 times. First when they lose their money based material stuff and then if they do not kill themselves like Hitler, they waste away to die again when no one will come to help them when they lose their ability to help themselves. This is the "mother of all battles" for them. Google "money as debt" FYI asap and learn about your enemy in your country and how to best defend yourself

08/18/08 WAR
I am sick of seeing our brave young men and women dying in foreign countries and for what ?? Most of the world sees us as a bully and maybe we are . How can we cry foul when Russia acts against Georgia when we ourselves invaded Iraq on trumped up charges and thousand's of innocent people and soldiers die ??? And by the way....it was Georgia that attacked South Oesstia (where Russia had troops stationed) after she signed a truce. Also, let us be honest...if Russia wanted to install a Missile Defense System in Cuba...like we are going to do in Poland....What would the United States do ?? We nearly went to World War III over Cuba when Russia wanted to install missiles there in the 60's...I know the missiles then were Ballistic missiles.....but Russia sees this missile defense system as being just as dangerous..... no less than a knife at her throat.
I understand we must act together with NATO or with the United Nations to protect the weak when necessary....but...we must stop acting semi-unilaterally and work with Russia and China and the others ...they are not going away and they will get stronger. If Bush thinks he can pull a “Ronald Reagan” and out spend them on defense this time ...he is crazier than I thought he is. If we could scale back our military spending and start minding our own damn business a little more (among other things) ....just think of what we could do with all that money !!! It breaks my heart to think of what we could have accomplished as the richest nation in the history of the world over the past 50 years... if we had not seen ourselves as the main policeman of the world . Our schools are in sad shape...crime runs rampant..our infrastructure is old and failing and we are in debt up to our ears and then some !!! (how long will our children have to pay for the Trillions upon Trillions of dollars Bush has spent and is still spending ?) We are acting as if we have an unlimited supply of money to buy war goods and to give away or in Iraq's case ...rebuild after we blow up. Unless we change our ways and stop this lunacy we are headed for a very tough time. One step we could take ( I mean after all the obvious stuff) is to enact term limits of the Senate and the House seats ! This could reduce some Pork Barrel business and hopefully reduce the influence of campaign contributers and get some new blood in there every few years .
I fear that if McCain is elected....it will be a horrible thing for this country we cannot afford another Bush-like President.... It is obvious Bush is a rich man's son who has never had to make a dollar stretch and who loves to play war. We need someone who can say NO to our generals (when the situation calls for it) and the military Industrial complex. Someone who can balance reason against knee jerk reactions and look a little further down the road ....someone who is not so full of himself that he smiles on television when telling our country of the deaths of our brave service men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan !
Remember what President Eisenhower said when he left office !!! He tried to warn us .
Now I don't know if Obama is the right guy...but I do know that McCain is not the right guy . His “ Give me someone to hit” statement surely reflects his Hawkish ways or it may be it was him just trying to get a better seat on the “Ronald Regan Right Wing” band wagon.

Well said, and I have to agree with everything you say, mark g.

I even have to agree with what you refrained from saying, like : "Why do we always have to save everybody else's ass?" that usually follows most comments on American interventionism.

Apples and oranges.

Sure, American dollars do a lot of good fighting AIDS in Africa and things like that, but all the other industrialized countries put money in that pot too. We're talking international charity work here, NOT American interventionism.

"Why do we always have to save everybody else's ass?" That simple minded comment keeps bouncing back and forth all the time and I'm sick of it. America's been protecting its interests globally by buying other countries' allegiances with money and other forms of interventions.

America is a business first and foremost. It spends money, lives and rhetoric to buy American power. You may get discounts but in the long run, there never are any freebies.

So I just wish the bottom feeding class of republicans would drop a little realpolitik pill (purportedly the republican's own medicine) and cut it out with that whiny, self serving fecal matter, is all.

Spitfire